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  • #91
    I just wanted to state my view that the current economic configuration of the wolrd is not to the benefit of the "average" Chinese man or woman. Let's assume we could determine the median quality of life/standard of living, for purposes of this discussion. My view is that this person is suffering under "Globalization", as is the "median" American, and is the "median person" of most countries.


    The only countries where maybe the average person benefits from Globalization is "money center/money laundering" places, generally small countries in Europe or Caribbean Islands.

    The Chinese "miracle" has been built on two things:

    1. The sheer size of the country - about 20 % of all humanity

    2. The use of the huge, surplus rural population as a tool which is exploited by the elites of the country. Sound kind of like Lenin's and Stalin's playbook?

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    • #92
      Work to promote unrest in speakers of Chinese dialects.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by lakechampainer View Post
        I just wanted to state my view that the current economic configuration of the wolrd is not to the benefit of the "average" Chinese man or woman. Let's assume we could determine the median quality of life/standard of living, for purposes of this discussion. My view is that this person is suffering under "Globalization", as is the "median" American, and is the "median person" of most countries.


        The only countries where maybe the average person benefits from Globalization is "money center/money laundering" places, generally small countries in Europe or Caribbean Islands.
        That is totally false.



        Source: US Census Bureau Table F-3. Mean Income Received by Each Fifth and Top 5 Percent of Families - All Races

        The mean US family income of the middle quintile - Just about as median as you can get - has grown slightly faster since the creation of the WTO with GATT 1994 than it was growing before.

        However, people don't improve their standard of living by growing within their current quintiles, they improve it by climbing into higher quintiles.


        Originally posted by lakechampainer
        The Chinese "miracle" has been built on two things:

        1. The sheer size of the country - about 20 % of all humanity

        2. The use of the huge, surplus rural population as a tool which is exploited by the elites of the country. Sound kind of like Lenin's and Stalin's playbook?
        Would the ChiCom peasants have been better off with another round of Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution?

        How else is Beijing supposed to elevate a billion people out of abject, stone age poverty?
        Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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        • #94
          Doc,

          Your question about China is of course fair and complicated, but I am concerned a lot a more about myself, my family, friends and countrymen.
          The american president and Congress should essentially be concerned about the US. Their remit is primarily US citizens. They as a group have done a horrible job for decades, in my view. I don't believe I am alone in that view.

          I don't believe that the average Chinese has been well served by the move the exploit the rural population and to run near slave labor factories.

          The despoiling of their land certainly hasn't helped future generations of Chinese. I believe their economic growth will prove to be somewhat like the Soviets in the 50s, when for example they had excellent growth for a period of time, partly based on for example not taking care of the soil in Central Asia, in effect drawing down natural resources for the short term.

          edit: Actually, part of my answer is I would support the establishment of a United States Peace Academy, as I proposed in an earlier thread,

          http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...=peace+academy
          Last edited by lakechampainer; 06 Apr 11, 16:26.

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          • #95
            I'm glad 3 people found my 'Operation Inception' amusing. Those 10 minutes were not wasted after all.

            In all seriousness, this is history just repeating itself. I am sure people back in the day were worried that the U.S. was expanding at such a rapid rate. Then WWII happened. Great Britain went from being a world power to a world leader. I don't see why the United States can't give up it's power grip and allow China to take the reigns and receive it's share of criticism. The U.S. will benefit far more if it loses to China in this 'supremacy war'.

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            • #96
              Originally posted by lakechampainer View Post
              2. The use of the huge, surplus rural population as a tool which is exploited by the elites of the country. Sound kind of like Lenin's and Stalin's playbook?
              They had Mao, he was in the Stalin league and Lenin couldn't come close to either one of them. They may be exploited now, but after a little Mao the current government is good news. They are not headed there, they survived it already.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by lakechampainer View Post
                .

                The Chinese "miracle" has been built on two things:

                1. The sheer size of the country - about 20 % of all humanity

                2. The use of the huge, surplus rural population as a tool which is exploited by the elites of the country. Sound kind of like Lenin's and Stalin's playbook?
                Regarding your reason #1, maybe you should realize that the "sheer" size of the population (20% of all humanity) was a huge burden: having to feed, educate, and provide for them. Why can't you see that they at least did something right in that they were able to pull through very difficult times and are finally on track to an improving (and already vastly improved) way of life?

                Regarding your #2, I guess you'd rather the "surplus rural population" remain surplus and unemployed? One can't really complain about low wages. It's simple market forces: excess supply results in lower price, right?
                "We have no white flag."

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by RavenClaws View Post
                  Work to promote unrest in speakers of Chinese dialects.
                  Why?
                  "We have no white flag."

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by lakechampainer View Post
                    Doc,

                    Your question about China is of course fair and complicated, but I am concerned a lot a more about myself, my family, friends and countrymen.
                    The american president and Congress should essentially be concerned about the US. Their remit is primarily US citizens. They as a group have done a horrible job for decades, in my view. I don't believe I am alone in that view.

                    That is fair enough. But considering the mostly (except for 1) "negative" options you've presented in your poll, you apparently bear some ill-feeling towards China. Why?


                    I don't believe that the average Chinese has been well served by the move the exploit the rural population and to run near slave labor factories.
                    Well, that "move the [to] exploit the rural population" has resulted in a red-hot economic growth, which in turn has resulted in the betterment of uncounted lives. Yes, there are still people living in poverty, but that number is steadily going down (unlike in some other countries). May I ask what yardstick are you using to base your opinion on?


                    The despoiling of their land certainly hasn't helped future generations of Chinese. I believe their economic growth will prove to be somewhat like the Soviets in the 50s, when for example they had excellent growth for a period of time, partly based on for example not taking care of the soil in Central Asia, in effect drawing down natural resources for the short term.

                    Concern for the environment is experiencing a growing consciousness in China. A big part of the ignorance comes from ill-education, and of course the universal greed of taking shortcuts. Some time is needed, but I think they're on track, and the citizenry are becoming more aware and alert to their environment. I'm glad to see you're so concerned with Chinese pollution, and on the welfare of the future generations of chinese (you are, aren't you?).
                    "We have no white flag."

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Castro View Post
                      They had Mao, he was in the Stalin league and Lenin couldn't come close to either one of them. They may be exploited now, but after a little Mao the current government is good news. They are not headed there, they survived it already.
                      hehe good point.
                      "We have no white flag."

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
                        Would the ChiCom peasants have been better off with another round of Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution?

                        How else is Beijing supposed to elevate a billion people out of abject, stone age poverty?
                        Very good questions.
                        "We have no white flag."

                        Comment


                        • [QUOTE/]=Hadziomerovic;1801891]I'm glad 3 people found my 'Operation Inception' amusing. Those 10 minutes were not wasted after all.[/QUOTE]


                          Keep 'em coming! hehehe

                          In all seriousness, this is history just repeating itself. I am sure people back in the day were worried that the U.S. was expanding at such a rapid rate. Then WWII happened. Great Britain went from being a world power to a world leader. I don't see why the United States can't give up it's power grip and allow China to take the reigns and receive it's share of criticism. The U.S. will benefit far more if it loses to China in this 'supremacy war'.
                          heeheehee you're at it again. It's an almost comical thought, people struggling to be "number 1" only to be nagged 24 hours 24/7 hahaha
                          "We have no white flag."

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by GMan88 View Post
                            Regarding your reason #1, maybe you should realize that the "sheer" size of the population (20% of all humanity) was a huge burden: having to feed, educate, and provide for them. Why can't you see that they at least did something right in that they were able to pull through very difficult times and are finally on track to an improving (and already vastly improved) way of life?

                            Regarding your #2, I guess you'd rather the "surplus rural population" remain surplus and unemployed? One can't really complain about low wages. It's simple market forces: excess supply results in lower price, right?
                            I did not say in any way say I want them to be unemployed. My claim is their Chinese elites are forcing people into the factory areas for their own interests. Please don't mis-state what I say.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by lakechampainer View Post
                              I did not say in any way say I want them to be unemployed. My claim is their Chinese elites are forcing people into the factory areas for their own interests. Please don't mis-state what I say.
                              Well, when you say "huge, surplus rural population", doesn't it mean "unemployed"?

                              How does one gainfully employ a "huge surplus rural population"? These rural population MIGRATE to the cities in search of jobs. Can one afford to be choosy in selecting jobs when precisely there are too many people with too little job openings? Who's forcing (and how) people into the factory areas? The alternative of a huge surplus population from working is, of course, unemployment (not like what the US does, doesn't it, where those not seeking jobs aren't included in the unemployment count). If I misunderstood your post, I hope this explains it.

                              And to give credit where it's due, their minimum wage is going up, and has been going up steadily the past few years, and so too the working conditions which has also been steadily improving.

                              Okay, just so I don't misstate you (again?), can you pls clarify your statement: "Chinese elites are forcing people into the factory areas for their own interests."

                              If you don't mind, too, I'd like to re-ask my question which you haven't answered: "But considering the mostly (except for 1) "negative" options you've presented in your poll, you apparently bear some ill-feeling towards China. Why?"
                              Last edited by GMan88; 06 Apr 11, 20:26.
                              "We have no white flag."

                              Comment


                              • To be fair, I would like to point out that some Chinese prefer the old way of life.
                                I have a few Chinese friends who's grandparents chose to return to rural China after living in the US for a few years.
                                They just didn't assimilate well into modern society.
                                "Stand for the flag ~ Kneel for the fallen"

                                "A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer." ~ Bruce Lee

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