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  • #76
    Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
    The number of people employed in manufacturing has decreaed, while the value of what they manufacture has increased...

    ...
    What happens when you increase the value of what you produce while decreasing the number of people producing it?

    You get increasing productivity...

    ...
    If Red China is in any way responsible for the near-tripling of our manufacturing productivity since 1975, we should "deal with China" by saying "谢谢!"
    All of this is true but it treats macro-economics as the governing consideration. Neither low-wage service jobs nor jobs requiring higher education can absorb workers displaced by the loss of manufacturing.

    The corollary to your economic points is that the negative impacts of the loss of these jobs are social and political. My impression is that the Democratic Party has been the chief beneficiary.
    Any metaphor will tear if stretched over too much reality.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Dashy View Post
      You don't understand the Chinese psyche.

      Think of a cow, does a cow suddenly say "Screw this, I'm going to kill the farmer and make this farm my own".

      No, the cow doesn't.

      the cow does what her ancestors have done. eats grass and makes babies.

      The Chinese live better than they ever have, they have concrete huts instead of mud ones, and they get 5 grains of rice a day compared to two.

      It's all a matter of perspective.

      Theres also the fact the Chinese aren't as greedy (as a culture) as their European counterparts. It is quite common for Chinese men to send most of the money they earn home to their families when working away, the Chinese have real community spirit.

      As for removing the worlds largest producer of consumer goods ... sure you coud do it .... but it would be years, hell decades before things got back to normal prices, rome wasn't built in a day, and setting up facoties takes time. Prices of goods such as laptops and televisions would rise by anything from 50-100 times, with no cheap Chinese parts, Sony, Apple, HP ... all those companies would crumble, soon after would follow the entertainment industry, after that, governments.

      China has America by its consumerist throat, don't push her, and she won't push you.
      Exactly. A lot of people claim "The Chinese people are starving/suffering in poverty!" However, they're wealthier now than they have been in history, and they don't care. The Chinese follow what their ancestors did, and many of them don't care about wealth, because they're not greedy. They care more about helping their country and countrymen than themselves. Quite a noble thing.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Hadziomerovic View Post
        I vote for ''Operation Inception''

        This operation is a very dangerous and highly erotic one which involves parachuting me, a single ''European'' bachelor into the midst of the Chinese female population or whatever is left of it.

        The operation will consist of three very important and highly sensual phases.

        Phase One will consist of me going under cover in one of China's various male prostitution rings. This phase will help me gain a much needed experience of their love making as well as gaining female contacts throughout China. It will take years for me to go through all of China.

        Phase Two is a highly dangerous phase which consists of me successfully attempting a daring escape from my local Chinese pimp where afterwards I shall meet up with a local Chinese female where I shall initiate Phase Three.

        Phase Three will be the final and most important phase, I shall gather every female in China have them fall in love with me and impregnate every single Chinese lady which will result in a new generation also known as the "Fornication Generation" generation. This generation shall be fathered by myself and will number to approximately 1.2 billion children, at which point in time I shall raise all my children to be splinter cells within China so that one day it can be annexed to the Great Republic of Bosnian Brotherhood and Fraternity.

        Sounds great doesn't it? I just wasted 10 minutes writing that.
        ahahahahahahahaha... man, you'll need lots and lots of tiger "parts" for that endeavor hahahahahahahahaha
        "We have no white flag."

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        • #79
          Originally posted by american1975 View Post
          Not as a share of the TOTAL economy. From 1/3 in 1965, to 10% today...
          Which reflects the growth of the service sector; not a decline in manufacturing capacity and output.
          Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by american1975 View Post
            Nonsense, Bernanke adding $3 Trillion to the Fed balance sheet in 1 shot without any effect proves we could simply monitize China's $1 Trillion overnight. What are they going to do, increase the value of their currency and get priced out of our market? We hold all the cards with China.
            Well, how about creditors stop buying american debt? Or better yet, why borrow, when one can just keep printing money?
            "We have no white flag."

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            • #81
              Originally posted by GCoyote View Post
              All of this is true but it treats macro-economics as the governing consideration. Neither low-wage service jobs nor jobs requiring higher education can absorb workers displaced by the loss of manufacturing.
              Macroeconomics is the only thing that matters in relating the economies of the United States and Red China... And nothing matters more to macroeconomics than productivity.

              From 1983 through 2007, the long-term trend of the US unemployment rate declined, despite the decline in manufacturing employment.

              Originally posted by GCoyote
              The corollary to your economic points is that the negative impacts of the loss of these jobs are social and political. My impression is that the Democratic Party has been the chief beneficiary.

              Democrats always benefit from bad arithmetic.
              Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by american1975 View Post
                Abandoning tarrifs in the name of the cold war and ultimately just for the short-term profits of US corporations devouring the middle-class that created them caused that. If using lower standard of living as a comparative advantage was outlawed via tarrifs nationally, or better yet, worldwide, then trade would be based on advancing mankind, rather than expoiting and degrading him!
                Quality of life in china has been improving through the years. how is it exploiting and degrading? Do you even really know what you're talking about?
                "We have no white flag."

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by american1975 View Post
                  The Huns and Mongols caused enough grief.
                  Wow, amazing that you had to dig that far into ancient history isn't it?
                  "We have no white flag."

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by american1975 View Post
                    High end what??? Even Boeing is being "outsourced" i.e. the dreamliner. Most of our trade numbers are phony anyways, with piece-work counted as an export. Ask the British Empire that embraced free-trade religion in 1847 how well it's working for them...O wait, it doesnt exist anymore!
                    I thought this was in English...
                    China tops US in manufacturing

                    The West Australian
                    March 15, 2011

                    China topped the United States as the world's largest manufacturer for the first time last year, according to a study by economic research firm IHS Global Insight.

                    China accounted for 19.8 per cent of global manufacturing in 2010, compared with 19.4 per cent for the US - $US1.995 trillion worth, compared with $US1.952 trillion, according to IHS.

                    But by measures of productivity, China remained far behind the United States, with US manufacturing workers generating more than eight times the value per person than China's.

                    "In other words, the US manufacturing sector is producing roughly the same amount of output in 2010 with 11.5 million workers as opposed to its Chinese counterpart with around 100 million workers," IHS said.


                    [...]

                    LINK
                    Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by american1975 View Post
                      Then why not just bring back slavery? Walmart today would have factories at Auschwitz, to todays global corporations- all of manking is a disposable commodity!
                      How is it disposable? You have something against capitalism? hmm maybe you do.
                      "We have no white flag."

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by GMan88 View Post
                        Quality of life in china has been improving through the years. how is it exploiting and degrading? Do you even really know what you're talking about?
                        The Chinese workers will just be shunted aside as soon as wages push up near $4.00 an hour, for Vietnam/Laos/Cambodia/Africa ect.ect., and the world-wide race to the bottom continues unabated. Look at the free-trade disaster of Mexico, companies are leaving Mexico fro lower wages in China and points west. Free-trade means nations have no control over their economic destiny, with international corporations free to exploit the world to squeeze profits from a reduction in world living standards. The Chinese are not stupid though, they don't believe in free-trade, just simply use it for their short-term advantage. The same way Japan rebuilt after WW2.
                        If war is Hell, why was the Eastern Front so damned cold??!!

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by american1975 View Post
                          That's a function of the declining standard of living of the American workforce- profits and productivity no longer translate into wages. Thus US corporations made $2 Trillion last year- their highest profits in history, yet give no raises...You'll notice the trend starts rapidly rising after 1973, that's when wages and benefits for American workers reached their highest- its been in a slow decline since...
                          Nonsense.



                          St. Louis Federal Reserve



                          St. Louis Federal Reserve


                          While manufacturing wages were flat from 2009-2010, they have been steadily growing, just like the rest of the workforce...



                          Bureau of Labor Statistics - Median usual weekly earnings (second quartile), Employed full time, Private wage and salary workers, Manufacturing
                          Last edited by The Doctor; 06 Apr 11, 10:30.
                          Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Dashy View Post
                            What has China ever done to suggest it wishes to challenge the US? sure its army is huge, but with a population of 2 billion why wouldn't it be?

                            They, like the Russians, are probably pissing their pants with fear of an incoming American invasion, China has no power projection, America can send a kickass army to any part of the world within a week,

                            Go Figure.
                            My great uncle Mark Richard, who was a deputy assistant attorney general for a long time told me, that Russia concluded they would need 100 million soldiers to attack the U.S. because besides the U.S. Army, they would have to contend with all those "second amendment fanatics".

                            Then he asked me, which country in the world can drop 100 million soldiers at the tip of a hat?
                            "They are not missing they are here" General Plumer at the inauguration of the Menin gate in Ypres

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by sirabe View Post
                              My great uncle Mark Richard, who was a deputy assistant attorney general for a long time told me, that Russia concluded they would need 100 million soldiers to attack the U.S. because besides the U.S. Army, they would have to contend with all those "second amendment fanatics".

                              Then he asked me, which country in the world can drop 100 million soldiers at the tip of a hat?
                              Its not as much the soldiers as it is getting them over there and keeping them supplied and properly equipped.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by american1975 View Post
                                The Chinese workers will just be shunted aside as soon as wages push up near $4.00 an hour, for Vietnam/Laos/Cambodia/Africa ect.ect., and the world-wide race to the bottom continues unabated. Look at the free-trade disaster of Mexico, companies are leaving Mexico fro lower wages in China and points west. Free-trade means nations have no control over their economic destiny, with international corporations free to exploit the world to squeeze profits from a reduction in world living standards. The Chinese are not stupid though, they don't believe in free-trade, just simply use it for their short-term advantage. The same way Japan rebuilt after WW2.
                                Amusing.

                                New Zealand has a free trade agreement with China, but not America.

                                Awkward ....
                                Task Force Regenbogen- Support and Paras

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