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  • #61
    Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
    The US manufacturing base has not been decimated.

    Our manufacturing capacity and output have more than doubled since 1970...



    Source: Federal Reserve

    Output is currently down ~7% from where it was in 2007; but that's due to the deep recession and slow recovery... It has nothing to do with China.
    Not as a share of the TOTAL economy. From 1/3 in 1965, to 10% today...
    If war is Hell, why was the Eastern Front so damned cold??!!

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by GMan88 View Post
      Actually I misstated my post. What I meant to say was, it doesn't matter if the decimation was caused by china or other countries, its the cost of labor and market forces that determine the movements.

      Sorry to hear that you're affected by the economic downturn, but the fact remains (as Doc's post more adequately shows) that China has nothing to do with it.
      Then why not just bring back slavery? Walmart today would have factories at Auschwitz, to todays global corporations- all of manking is a disposable commodity!
      If war is Hell, why was the Eastern Front so damned cold??!!

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by GCoyote View Post
        Separately - http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2009_12_01_archive.html


        However I view the rise of China's manufacturing base as a result of changes in the US manufacturing sector, not as a cause of those changes.

        Cumbersome and anticompetitive regulations in the US, an irrational healthcare market, frivolous litigation, erratic tax policies, unresponsive management, and corrupt unions all aided by a self-serving legislature account for much of the loss. China is just the beneficiary.
        Average hourly wage in China= $2.00 per hour, US $22.48- In a free trade environment, what is the likely result of such an imbalance???
        If war is Hell, why was the Eastern Front so damned cold??!!

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Imperial View Post
          Why is it too late?
          It's only too late when the people of a democracy looses the will to act in its own best interests...
          If war is Hell, why was the Eastern Front so damned cold??!!

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by sirabe View Post
            Bring manufacturing back to the U.S.!

            The Republicans will never agree!
            The party of "supply side" debt and bankruptcy sees no problem
            If war is Hell, why was the Eastern Front so damned cold??!!

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by american1975 View Post
              The average hourly wage in China is $2.00 PER HOUR!!! Per capita, $4000 a year! Without foriegn aid in the form of a $300 Billion+ trade deficit with this country, those $2HR workers would overthrow their corrupt "communist" (really oligharichal fascist) government overnight. There is no shortage of poor people to exploit in this world to make Walmart's products. We could even make them here at home again...
              You don't understand the Chinese psyche.

              Think of a cow, does a cow suddenly say "Screw this, I'm going to kill the farmer and make this farm my own".

              No, the cow doesn't.

              the cow does what her ancestors have done. eats grass and makes babies.

              The Chinese live better than they ever have, they have concrete huts instead of mud ones, and they get 5 grains of rice a day compared to two.

              It's all a matter of perspective.

              Theres also the fact the Chinese aren't as greedy (as a culture) as their European counterparts. It is quite common for Chinese men to send most of the money they earn home to their families when working away, the Chinese have real community spirit.

              As for removing the worlds largest producer of consumer goods ... sure you coud do it .... but it would be years, hell decades before things got back to normal prices, rome wasn't built in a day, and setting up facoties takes time. Prices of goods such as laptops and televisions would rise by anything from 50-100 times, with no cheap Chinese parts, Sony, Apple, HP ... all those companies would crumble, soon after would follow the entertainment industry, after that, governments.

              China has America by its consumerist throat, don't push her, and she won't push you.
              Task Force Regenbogen- Support and Paras

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
                The number of people employed in manufacturing has decreaed, while the value of what they manufacture has increased...



                What happens when you increase the value of what you produce while decreasing the number of people producing it?

                You get increasing productivity...



                If Red China is in any way responsible for the near-tripling of our manufacturing productivity since 1975, we should "deal with China" by saying "谢谢!"
                That's a function of the declining standard of living of the American workforce- profits and productivity no longer translate into wages. Thus US corporations made $2 Trillion last year- their highest profits in history, yet give no raises...You'll notice the trend starts rapidly rising after 1973, that's when wages and benefits for American workers reached their highest- its been in a slow decline since...
                Last edited by american1975; 06 Apr 11, 06:25.
                If war is Hell, why was the Eastern Front so damned cold??!!

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Hadziomerovic View Post
                  I vote for ''Operation Inception''

                  This operation is a very dangerous and highly erotic one which involves parachuting me, a single ''European'' bachelor into the midst of the Chinese female population or whatever is left of it.

                  The operation will consist of three very important and highly sensual phases.

                  Phase One will consist of me going under cover in one of China's various male prostitution rings. This phase will help me gain a much needed experience of their love making as well as gaining female contacts throughout China. It will take years for me to go through all of China.

                  Phase Two is a highly dangerous phase which consists of me successfully attempting a daring escape from my local Chinese pimp where afterwards I shall meet up with a local Chinese female where I shall initiate Phase Three.

                  Phase Three will be the final and most important phase, I shall gather every female in China have them fall in love with me and impregnate every single Chinese lady which will result in a new generation also known as the "Fornication Generation" generation. This generation shall be fathered by myself and will number to approximately 1.2 billion children, at which point in time I shall raise all my children to be splinter cells within China so that one day it can be annexed to the Great Republic of Bosnian Brotherhood and Fraternity.

                  Sounds great doesn't it? I just wasted 10 minutes writing that.

                  I hope you drink plenty of water, sounds like you might get a bit dehydrated
                  If war is Hell, why was the Eastern Front so damned cold??!!

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Free-trade fraud

                    Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
                    That's because Republicans are smart enough to realize that our manufacturing output, capacity and productivity are at or near record high levels.

                    So... There's nothing to "bring back." We've outsourced low-end manufacturing to cheaper labor markets; while increasing the high-end manufacturing...
                    High end what??? Even Boeing is being "outsourced" i.e. the dreamliner. Most of our trade numbers are phony anyways, with piece-work counted as an export. Ask the British Empire that embraced free-trade religion in 1847 how well it's working for them...O wait, it doesnt exist anymore!
                    Last edited by american1975; 06 Apr 11, 06:39.
                    If war is Hell, why was the Eastern Front so damned cold??!!

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      There really is not much the USA could do but try to have friendly relations with China. The two economies are so inertwined that any big disruption would cause economic disaster.

                      As for the poll options, I chosed help curb Chinese pollution and lobby for the renufication of Korea.
                      ´
                      “You need to help people. I know it's not very Republican to say but you need to help people.” DONALD TRUMP, 2016

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Dashy View Post
                        You don't understand the Chinese psyche.

                        Think of a cow, does a cow suddenly say "Screw this, I'm going to kill the farmer and make this farm my own".

                        No, the cow doesn't.

                        the cow does what her ancestors have done. eats grass and makes babies.

                        The Chinese live better than they ever have, they have concrete huts instead of mud ones, and they get 5 grains of rice a day compared to two.

                        It's all a matter of perspective.

                        Theres also the fact the Chinese aren't as greedy (as a culture) as their European counterparts. It is quite common for Chinese men to send most of the money they earn home to their families when working away, the Chinese have real community spirit.
                        Greed is a question of opportunity and awareness, something the average Chinese lacked until now. As for remittances, its the same for everyone who works abroad with their families still home...

                        As for removing the worlds largest producer of consumer goods ... sure you coud do it .... but it would be years, hell decades before things got back to normal prices, rome wasn't built in a day, and setting up facoties takes time. Prices of goods such as laptops and televisions would rise by anything from 50-100 times, with no cheap Chinese parts, Sony, Apple, HP ... all those companies would crumble, soon after would follow the entertainment industry, after that, governments.

                        China has America by its consumerist throat, don't push her, and she won't push you.
                        Low prices have created a disposable and wastefull society. And we really don't get all the benefits of slave wages abroad-$200 Nike's made in Vietnam sweatshops, for example. The importers acting as middlemen pocket the difference between the low wages abroad, and the declining middle class here...
                        If war is Hell, why was the Eastern Front so damned cold??!!

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Jonathanrex1 View Post
                          There really is not much the USA could do but try to have friendly relations with China. The two economies are so inertwined that any big disruption would cause economic disaster.

                          As for the poll options, I chosed help curb Chinese pollution and lobby for the renufication of Korea.
                          Maybe a disaster for the Chinese police-state oligarchy, certainly not for the American dollar or standard of living...
                          If war is Hell, why was the Eastern Front so damned cold??!!

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by american1975 View Post
                            The average hourly wage in China is $2.00 PER HOUR!!! Per capita, $4000 a year! Without foriegn aid in the form of a $300 Billion+ trade deficit with this country, those $2HR workers would overthrow their corrupt "communist" (really oligharichal fascist) government overnight. There is no shortage of poor people to exploit in this world to make Walmart's products. We could even make them here at home again...
                            You'd make a good point if your $2.00 in the US can buy the same as $2.00 in China.
                            "We have no white flag."

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by american1975 View Post
                              High end what??? Even Boeing is being "outsourced" i.e. the dreamliner. Most of our trade numbers are phony anyways, with piece-work counted as an export. Ask the British Empire that embraced free-trade religion in 1847 how well it's working for them...O wait, it doesnt exist anymore!
                              Britain is wealthier now than it was back in the Pax Britianica days. But outsourcing is I'm afraid to say commonplace due to the simple fact that wages are the most costly part of any business enterprise. A soon as an economy grows high enough so does its wages (and often Union power with it off the back of higher awareness and lower class education) and they begin to become uncompetetive against other regions. Japanese in the 60's and 70's took a lot of western manafacturing but a lot of their manafacturing is now going to Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia and of course China for similar reasons. We also have to look at oursleves aswell. The UK car industry for example and then the US one has gone down the toilet because of a) what I mentioned above but also because we have unfortunately been complacent in producing an inferior product. The main exception is the Germans who have consistently built a very superior product that has kept the Asians at bay and may well know even out produce Toyota. The irony being that their ww2 defeat gave them the motivation to do this whereas our victory did not.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by GMan88 View Post
                                You'd make a good point if your $2.00 in the US can buy the same as $2.00 in China.
                                But keep in mind even at purchasing power parity they'd be considerably poorer, even if by diferent numbers.
                                And these $ are the same in China as in the US as far as the people paying the salaries care. $2.00 don't buy the same in China, but they cost the same to the investor. Hence why manufacturing is at a serious disadvantage in regards to this specific type of cost.

                                Comment

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