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  • Originally posted by GMan88 View Post
    First time I've heard of this. Any idea for what crime, or is this in general? What I know is, once the decision has become final, the execution can be done within the week.
    I'll have to see if I can find some material for you on this. This is common knowledge in China. When someone is sentenced, you have to act quick to start appeal process, or it would be too late.

    This one was true. But as far I know the last couple of Filipinas who got executed was by lethal injection. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with a bullet. Saves a lot on the expense.


    This one for me was a good policy too. Although my question is, why stop at billing the cost of the bullet (which is pretty darn cheap)? Why not bill for the transport of the body as well?



    This is a rare moment, where we are in complete agreement!
    "Stand for the flag ~ Kneel for the fallen"

    "A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer." ~ Bruce Lee

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    • I'm thinking we should start a new thread on this, if you want to continue the discussion. I believe we've hijacked this thread.
      "Stand for the flag ~ Kneel for the fallen"

      "A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer." ~ Bruce Lee

      Comment


      • Originally posted by GMan88 View Post
        Tsk tsk, watch your blood pressure. On the contrary, I've heard of that.

        What happened there is sophistry, plain and simple. Sorry, I cannot leave aside the question, as some sort of history has to be made regarding the title "Dalai Lama" for a better understanding of the situation.It all has to do with the nature of the title "Dalai Lama". That title was given centuries ago by the then rulers of China to the "spiritual" leader of Tibet, and along with that title he was also given administrative (political) powers so that the then rulers of China would have an easier time managing Tibet. (have you guessed by now what ruling group started that in China?) And every "Dalai Lama" thereafter had to be confirmed. Still with me so far? (I happened to know that because I was able to find and get my hands on "The Biographies of the Dalai Lama" at a discount price )

        Now, China (current) refuses to talk to the current Dalai Lama because the current one has refused to give up his political powers. Now, I believe it is your interpretation that he has "handed over" (and therefore relinquished?) his political power? That's true enough in a shallow sense, but as I've mentioned, that's sophistry. Why? Because there was NO ABROGATION of his political power. HE MERELY PASSED IT ON. One only has to ask oneself: if the chinese government's primary objection to holding talks with him is his insistence on his right to political power, his PASSING IT ON merely REINFORCES HIS RIGHT TO DO SO, and China's "recognition" of it would mean that the Dalai Lama has that political right all along. Now how acceptable is that scenario?

        It's not that complicated, really, is it? And by the way, by that action, he has just single-handedly ensured that the problem is handed to the next generation.
        We had a long debate previously about the history of the various Dalai Lamas and China's/Britain's interventions in the region. At the end (not that there was an end), I remained convinced of my position and you of yours.

        It would be too tedious to go over all that again.

        Nobody said he the Dalai Lama is ABROGATING his political power, as in saying he should never have had it. Yes, he is merely passing it on to a younger generation.

        Fact is, the (now democratically elected) leader of the Tibetan people is their true representative. So why should the Chinese continue to refuse to talk to him?

        Your assertion that Beijing could talk to a 'spiritual' put not 'political' leader is quite curious.

        I didn't think the Chinese leadership were interested in spiritual matters.


        Philip
        "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts."— Bertrand Russell

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        • Originally posted by Persephone View Post
          Here's a list of crimes that are considered capital offenses in China...
          The list sounds fairly reasonable, doesn't it? I think the controversy arises from China's definition of "national secrets", and, of course, the actual judicial procedure (which I'm not too familiar with)
          "We have no white flag."

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          • Originally posted by Persephone View Post
            I'll have to see if I can find some material for you on this. This is common knowledge in China. When someone is sentenced, you have to act quick to start appeal process, or it would be too late.






            This is a rare moment, where we are in complete agreement!
            Yep, that's precisely my point, once it becomes final (whether it's been through all the appeals or the decision has lapsed into finality and THEN still passed through the mandatory Supreme Court appeal), it's immediately executable. Literally.

            Yep, I'm feeling a warm glow already!
            "We have no white flag."

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            • Originally posted by Persephone View Post
              I'm thinking we should start a new thread on this, if you want to continue the discussion. I believe we've hijacked this thread.
              I'd love to continue this conversation. If you'd care to do the honors? (oh, and sorry to the thread starter)
              "We have no white flag."

              Comment


              • Originally posted by philiplaos View Post
                We had a long debate previously about the history of the various Dalai Lamas and China's/Britain's interventions in the region. At the end (not that there was an end), I remained convinced of my position and you of yours.

                It would be too tedious to go over all that again.
                I actually forgot how it ended, but I do remember that despite all the head-butting there were no below-the-belt hits.


                Nobody said he the Dalai Lama is ABROGATING his political power, as in saying he should never have had it. Yes, he is merely passing it on to a younger generation.
                Well, it's because you said I wasn't updated, so I clarified my position on why I posted what I did.


                Fact is, the (now democratically elected) leader of the Tibetan people is their true representative. So why should the Chinese continue to refuse to talk to him?
                Why does China continue to refuse to talk to the "president" of Taiwan? I think it's because they are sensitive to anything that has to do with their sovereignty. They cannot treat with you if you're using a position they see as bogus.


                Your assertion that Beijing could talk to a 'spiritual' put not 'political' leader is quite curious.

                I didn't think the Chinese leadership were interested in spiritual matters.


                Philip
                Oh, they're not interested in spiritual matters (just look at how China does not want the Pope too be the head of the chinese Catholic Church - and rightly so in my opinion, but that's another matter ). It's more the fact that they DO NOT RECOGNIZE the political nature of his being "dalai lama" I think. They do recognize him as a spiritual leader and can deal with him as such. Again, it goes down to the dichotomy of the title, how a spiritual leader is a simple spiritual leader, but a dalai lama historically was bestowed by the chinese government with political powers as well. So, they will deal with him as a spiritual leader ONLY, since to their mind, his political power was never bestowed when he took his term, and to the government's eyes it's within their purview to do so or not, which they never did. (just my own thinking )

                I think also that the chinese leadership can be interested in spiritual matters too when there's a corruption probe going on


                GMan
                Last edited by GMan88; 08 Jun 11, 22:42.
                "We have no white flag."

                Comment


                • Originally posted by philiplaos View Post
                  I didn't think the Chinese leadership were interested in spiritual matters.

                  Philip
                  Originally posted by GMan88 View Post
                  Oh, they're not interested in spiritual matters (just look at how China does not want the Pope too be the head of the chinese Catholic Church - and rightly so in my opinion, but that's another matter ). It's more the fact that they DO NOT RECOGNIZE the political nature of his being "dalai lama" I think. They do recognize him as a spiritual leader and can deal with him as such. Again, it goes down to the dichotomy of the title, how a spiritual leader is a simple spiritual leader, but a dalai lama historically was bestowed by the chinese government with political powers as well. So, they will deal with him as a spiritual leader ONLY, since to their mind, his political power was never bestowed when he took his term, and to the government's eyes it's within their purview to do so or not, which they never did. (just my own thinking )

                  I think also that the chinese leadership can be interested in spiritual matters too when there's a corruption probe going on

                  GMan

                  I notice the Chinese worships gods and deities, more so than religion. Actually, it's referred to as Chinese folk religion. The Chinese are spiritual, just not what we are accustomed to.

                  The most feared god, is the God of War. I notice they tend to worship the God of Death and the God of Wealth the most.

                  This worship of the gods are the underlying belief system of more than a billion people. Go into most Chinese homes, offices or businesses and you will see alters, statues and good luck images. Wherever there is a Chinese community, there are temples and Earth God shrines. They have annual Da Jiu festivals, where they celebrate their gods, deities and even the moon. The Cheung Chau's Bun Festival, draws tens of thousands of local and overseas tourists every year, is staged to mark the 8th day of the Fourth Moon.

                  They also believe in the geomantic science of feng shui. They believe in using energy of the environment to encourage or discourage various psychological effects.
                  Last edited by Persephone; 09 Jun 11, 05:11.
                  "Stand for the flag ~ Kneel for the fallen"

                  "A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer." ~ Bruce Lee

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by GMan88 View Post
                    The list sounds fairly reasonable, doesn't it? I think the controversy arises from China's definition of "national secrets", and, of course, the actual judicial procedure (which I'm not too familiar with)
                    There are some crimes on the list that I don't see a punishment of death as justified.

                    Originally posted by GMan88 View Post
                    Yep, that's precisely my point, once it becomes final (whether it's been through all the appeals or the decision has lapsed into finality and THEN still passed through the mandatory Supreme Court appeal), it's immediately executable. Literally.
                    The legal process there happens very quickly, some are not quick enough to apply for an appeal. Besides, only very a small percentage wins their appeals anyway. It's almost as if they are simply going through the motions.
                    "Stand for the flag ~ Kneel for the fallen"

                    "A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer." ~ Bruce Lee

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Persephone View Post
                      I notice the Chinese worships gods and deities, more so than religion. Actually, it's referred to as Chinese folk religion. The Chinese are spiritual, just not what we are accustomed to.
                      And don't forget ancestral worship. (when I was responding to philiplaos, and stated that the chinese leadership weren't interested in spiritual matters, I was actually referring to the context of them carrying out their job/function. sorry for the confusion)


                      The most feared god, is the God of War. I notice they tend to worship the God of Death and the God of Wealth the most.
                      Well, you know what they say about death and taxes...


                      This worship of the gods are the underlying belief system of more than a billion people. Go into most Chinese homes, offices or businesses and you will see alters, statues and good luck images. Wherever there is a Chinese community, there are temples and Earth God shrines. They have annual Da Jiu festivals, where they celebrate their gods, deities and even the moon. The Cheung Chau's Bun Festival, draws tens of thousands of local and overseas tourists every year, is staged to mark the 8th day of the Fourth Moon.
                      Don't forget to factor in the fact that a lot of them simply accept it as part of their culture, and don't particularly believe too much on the spiritual aspect of that "religion". If I were to classify it, I'd put it more as beliefs and traditions rather than outright religion.


                      They also believe in the geomantic science of feng shui. They believe in using energy of the environment to encourage or discourage various psychological effects.
                      Very true. Take note too they refer to it as a "science".
                      "We have no white flag."

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Persephone View Post
                        There are some crimes on the list that I don't see a punishment of death as justified.
                        Then you're more lenient than I am Personally I also like that "financial instrument fraud" is also included - very timely! But, no doubt there's a set amount for it to become punishable by death. I think it has to do with whether a crime is considered heinous or not. Over here once an economic crime reaches the amount of around $1.2M it becomes a charge of plunder, which is non-bailable. (am curious why they made the value added tax invoices fraud part of it, and not simply "tax evasion")


                        The legal process there happens very quickly, some are not quick enough to apply for an appeal. Besides, only very a small percentage wins their appeals anyway. It's almost as if they are simply going through the motions.
                        Well, there definitely is an appeals process. I don't know about the "only very a small percentage" winning their appeal: it either speaks of a better run trials stage that lowers the odds of an appeal getting a lower court decision overturned, or... something else

                        Of your last sentence, to be fair, even over here it's believed that to appeal a decision is like swimming upstream, because, as has been said to me, the tendency of the appeals courts is to uphold the lower court decision which is considered the actual triers of the case.
                        Last edited by GMan88; 09 Jun 11, 12:44.
                        "We have no white flag."

                        Comment


                        • Personally I also like that "financial instrument fraud" is also included
                          That's called writing a bad check. Up against the wall, blindfold?
                          "The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made."
                          — Groucho Marx

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                          • No dude, that's not writing a bad check, that's using financial instruments to defraud people of their money. Try to imagine large-scale estafa (something that happened relatively recently )That's waaaay different from a simple bouncing check.

                            (and it's more like lie down and "put to sleep" now)
                            Last edited by GMan88; 09 Jun 11, 13:46.
                            "We have no white flag."

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                            • Taiwan

                              Attached is a link to the Wikipedia article on Taiwan. Taiwan has a population of about 23 million on an area of about 14,000 square miles. Perhaps over time it can continue to influence China for the better, although you would think China will need to lighten up on the police-state methods somewhat.

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan#Economy
                              Last edited by lakechampainer; 09 Jun 11, 16:15.

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                              • Unfortunately, without the U.S., Taiwan is not much of a threat therefore not much of an influence on Chinese policies.

                                Most people view China today, the same way we viewed Japan in the 1980's. As a growing economic giant to be reckoned with. Whether China fulfills their destiny remains to be seen.

                                China is now buying E.U. debt as well. Europe is welcoming Chinese money and are rolling out the red carpet.
                                China will most likely try to exploit differences between member states within the E.U. Investing in European bonds is also an insurance policy against trade protectionism, something that China fears. Remember when the U.S. blocked the sale of Unocal in 2005? China simply took their money elsewhere. China is now buying oil refineries in Europe.

                                China senses weakness and takes advantage. Europe is in bad shape and needs money, China has it. Now China is Europe's banker as well.
                                "Stand for the flag ~ Kneel for the fallen"

                                "A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer." ~ Bruce Lee

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