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How Should US Deal with China Long-term?

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  • China executed more people last year than the rest of the world combined.

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/w...ow/7805898.cms
    "The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made."
    — Groucho Marx

    Comment


    • True. And China also has the world's largest population...

      I'd be more interested to find out the breakdown of those executed according to crime committed.
      "We have no white flag."

      Comment


      • Originally posted by GMan88 View Post
        True. And China also has the world's largest population...

        I'd be more interested to find out the breakdown of those executed according to crime committed.
        What percentage of the population is acceptable?

        The London-based group said it could not determine the exact number of executions in China because the figure is listed as a state secret, but it estimated that China executed thousands of people in 2010 for ''a wide range of crimes that include nonviolent offences and after proceedings that did not meet international fair trial standards.''
        The exact number of people executed by China is unknown because China considers the number of people executed by China a Chinese secret. You could check with Amnesty International if you're truly curious.
        "The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made."
        — Groucho Marx

        Comment


        • What percentage of the population is acceptable?
          As many as there are drug pushers, rapists, murderers, etc.

          The exact number of people executed by China is unknown because China considers the number of people executed by China a Chinese secret. You could check with Amnesty International if you're truly curious.
          I just might. For now I was just responding to the post that China has the world's highest number of executions. As I stated, I'd be more interested to find out the breakdown of the crimes committed.
          "We have no white flag."

          Comment


          • Originally posted by GMan88 View Post
            As many as there are drug pushers, rapists, murderers, etc.



            I just might. For now I was just responding to the post that China has the world's highest number of executions. As I stated, I'd be more interested to find out the breakdown of the crimes committed.
            The linked article was using Amnesty International as its source.
            "The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made."
            — Groucho Marx

            Comment


            • If they were all murderers and rapists, I doubt that the government would consider the figures sensitive. Clearly such secrecy indicates a political aspect.
              "The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made."
              — Groucho Marx

              Comment


              • Oh, no doubt. If not political, maybe some other aspect even. But, again, it boils down to the breakdown of the crimes committed, doesn't it?
                "We have no white flag."

                Comment


                • BTW, since you quoted from the article an admittedly unknown/unknowable quantity, let me quote something that's more tangible, from the same article:

                  The group acknowledged steps China has taken to reduce executions, including the Supreme People's Court's decision to review all death penalty cases since 2007.

                  It has overturned an average 10 percent of the cases reviewed.

                  China has also moved to throw out evidence illegally obtained through torture or coerced confessions and has proposed reducing the kinds of capital crimes and exempting convicts over 75 years of age from being executed.
                  The sad thing is, they actually were practising torture (or enhanced interrogation technique ) and using those as evidence. Of course, the silver lining is, at least they're taking steps already.

                  Also, personally I don't see China exempting those over 75 years of age from the death sentence as a positive, though, because for me the punishment should suit the crime. If a 76 year old homicidal maniac should die, he should die.
                  "We have no white flag."

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by GMan88 View Post
                    BTW, since you quoted from the article an admittedly unknown/unknowable quantity, let me quote something that's more tangible, from the same article:



                    The sad thing is, they actually were practising torture (or enhanced interrogation technique ) and using those as evidence. Of course, the silver lining is, at least they're taking steps already.

                    Also, personally I don't see China exempting those over 75 years of age from the death sentence as a positive, though, because for me the punishment should suit the crime. If a 76 year old homicidal maniac should die, he should die.
                    But since the numbers of executions (and presumably any method of enumerating them) are secret, we'll just have to take their word for it, won't we? We'll never really know it the numbers are reduced or not.
                    "The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made."
                    — Groucho Marx

                    Comment


                    • Yep, and we won't know that they weren't. But at least the law is moving forward in terms of reforms.
                      "We have no white flag."

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by GMan88 View Post
                        If the Dalai Lama (whose receiving of the title traditionally has to be "confirmed") were a purely spiritual leader, I think there wouldn't be a problem. But the one's refusal to give up one's political "leadership" should also explain somewhat the other's refusal to "talk to him".
                        You're not keeping up with political events regarding Tibet, are you? Not that there's any reason you should except if you are going to make incorrect statements like that.

                        Leaving aside for now why you think the Tibetan leadership "traditionally has to be confirmed" (by Beijing I assume you mean) and why you think China could speak to him if he were only a spiritual leader, not a political leader, the Dalai Lama has now handed over his political authority to a younger leader - something he has wanted to do for a very long time now.

                        Dalai Lama Hands Over Political Power to Elected Leader

                        Atlanta 5/31/2011 06:44 PM GMT (WooEB)

                        The Dalai Lama has officially stepped down as the leader of the Tibetan government-in-exile. The move was made official on Sunday following a three-day parliament session. Lobsang Sangay, who was elected to lead Tibet last month, has officially taken over leadership of the country. The Dalai Lama will remain Tibet’s spiritual leader.
                        I saw a Hardtalk interview with Lobsang Sangay last week. Very impressive!


                        Philip
                        "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts."— Bertrand Russell

                        Comment


                        • In China, a person can be arrested, tried, convicted, sentenced to death, appeal the decision, and be executed all in one week.

                          The execution method is usually a bullet to the back of the head. During the early 80's, families of the executed were made to pay the cost of the bullet.
                          "Stand for the flag ~ Kneel for the fallen"

                          "A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer." ~ Bruce Lee

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by philiplaos View Post
                            You're not keeping up with political events regarding Tibet, are you? Not that there's any reason you should except if you are going to make incorrect statements like that.

                            Leaving aside for now why you think the Tibetan leadership "traditionally has to be confirmed" (by Beijing I assume you mean) and why you think China could speak to him if he were only a spiritual leader, not a political leader, the Dalai Lama has now handed over his political authority to a younger leader - something he has wanted to do for a very long time now.



                            I saw a Hardtalk interview with Lobsang Sangay last week. Very impressive!


                            Philip
                            Tsk tsk, watch your blood pressure. On the contrary, I've heard of that.

                            What happened there is sophistry, plain and simple. Sorry, I cannot leave aside the question, as some sort of history has to be made regarding the title "Dalai Lama" for a better understanding of the situation.It all has to do with the nature of the title "Dalai Lama". That title was given centuries ago by the then rulers of China to the "spiritual" leader of Tibet, and along with that title he was also given administrative (political) powers so that the then rulers of China would have an easier time managing Tibet. (have you guessed by now what ruling group started that in China?) And every "Dalai Lama" thereafter had to be confirmed. Still with me so far? (I happened to know that because I was able to find and get my hands on "The Biographies of the Dalai Lama" at a discount price )

                            Now, China (current) refuses to talk to the current Dalai Lama because the current one has refused to give up his political powers. Now, I believe it is your interpretation that he has "handed over" (and therefore relinquished?) his political power? That's true enough in a shallow sense, but as I've mentioned, that's sophistry. Why? Because there was NO ABROGATION of his political power. HE MERELY PASSED IT ON. One only has to ask oneself: if the chinese government's primary objection to holding talks with him is his insistence on his right to political power, his PASSING IT ON merely REINFORCES HIS RIGHT TO DO SO, and China's "recognition" of it would mean that the Dalai Lama has that political right all along. Now how acceptable is that scenario?

                            It's not that complicated, really, is it? And by the way, by that action, he has just single-handedly ensured that the problem is handed to the next generation.
                            Last edited by GMan88; 08 Jun 11, 17:55.
                            "We have no white flag."

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Persephone View Post
                              In China, a person can be arrested, tried, convicted, sentenced to death, appeal the decision, and be executed all in one week.

                              First time I've heard of this. Any idea for what crime, or is this in general? What I know is, once the decision has become final, the execution can be done within the week.

                              The execution method is usually a bullet to the back of the head.
                              This one was true. But as far I know the last couple of Filipinas who got executed was by lethal injection. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with a bullet. Saves a lot on the expense.

                              During the early 80's, families of the executed were made to pay the cost of the bullet.
                              This one for me was a good policy too. Although my question is, why stop at billing the cost of the bullet (which is pretty darn cheap)? Why not bill for the transport of the body as well?
                              "We have no white flag."

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by GMan88 View Post
                                As many as there are drug pushers, rapists, murderers, etc.
                                Here's a list of crimes that are considered capital offenses in China...


                                OFFENSES LIABLE FOR CAPITAL PUNISHMENT AS
                                STIPULATED IN THE 1997 CRIMINAL LAW


                                Crimes Endangering National Security (7 capital offenses)
                                • Plotting to jeopardize the sovereignty, territorial integrity and security of the country
                                • Instigating to split the country
                                • Organizing, plotting, or carrying out armed rebellions, or armed riots
                                • Organizing, plotting or acting to subvert the political power of the state
                                • Espionage
                                • Stealing, secretly gathering, purchasing by bribery or illegally providing national secrets or
                                intelligence to foreign institutions
                                • Providing the enemy with armed equipment or military materials

                                Crimes Endangering Public Security (14 capital offenses)
                                • Arson
                                • Breaching dikes
                                • Causing explosions
                                • Poisoning
                                • Threatening public security with dangerous methods
                                • Sabotaging transportation instruments
                                • Sabotaging transportation infrastructures
                                • Sabotaging electric power
                                • Sabotaging inflammable or explosive facilities
                                • Hijacking an aircraft
                                • Illegally manufacturing, trading, transporting, and mailing guns, ammunition or explosives
                                • Illegally trading or transporting nuclear materials
                                • Stealing guns, ammunition or explosive materials
                                • Forcibly seizing guns, ammunition or explosive materials

                                Crimes Undermining the Socialist Market Economic Order (15 capital offenses)
                                • Producing or distributing bogus medicines
                                • Producing or distributing poisonous or harmful foods
                                • Smuggling weapons and ammunitions
                                • Smuggling nuclear materials
                                • Smuggling counterfeit currencies
                                • Smuggling cultural relics
                                • Smuggling precious metals
                                • Smuggling rare plants and their products
                                • Counterfeiting currency
                                • Fund-raising frauds
                                • Financial instrument frauds
                                • Letter of credit frauds
                                • Credit-card frauds
                                • Illegally issuing value-added tax invoices
                                • Counterfeiting or selling counterfeit value-added tax invoices

                                Crimes Infringing upon the Rights of the Person and his Democratic Rights (5 capital offenses)
                                • Murder
                                • Rape
                                • Statutory rape
                                • Kidnapping
                                • Abducting women and children

                                Crimes Encroaching on Property (2 capital offenses)
                                • Robbery
                                • Theft

                                Crimes Disrupting the Order of Social Administration (8 capital offenses)
                                • Imparting criminal methods
                                • Organizing a jail break
                                • Prison riots using weapons
                                • Illegally digging and robbing ancient remains or tombs
                                • Illegally digging or robbing fossils of ancient human beings or fossils of ancient vertebrate
                                animals
                                • Smuggling, trafficking, transporting or manufacturing narcotics
                                • Organizing another person to engage in prostitution
                                • Forcing another person into prostitution

                                Crimes Endangering the National Defense Interest (2 capital offenses)
                                • Sabotaging military weapons, military installations or military communications
                                • Knowingly providing unqualified weapons or military installations to the armed forces

                                Crimes of Graft and Bribery (2 capital offenses)
                                • Graft
                                • Bribe-taking

                                Crimes of Violating Duties of Military Servicemen (13 capital offenses)
                                • Refusing to carry out an order in wartime
                                • Deliberately concealing military intelligence, furnishing falsified intelligence
                                • Refusing to disseminate military orders, or falsely disseminating military orders
                                • Surrendering to the enemy
                                • Deserting on the eve of a battle
                                • Obstructing commanding officers or on-duty servicemen from carrying out their duties
                                • Defecting to a foreign country
                                • Illegally obtaining military secrets
                                • Illegally providing military secrets to foreign organs
                                • Fabricating rumors to mislead people during wartime
                                • Stealing or robbing weapons or military materials
                                • Unlawfully selling or transferring military weaponry
                                • Injuring or killing innocent residents or looting property from innocent residents during
                                wartime
                                "Stand for the flag ~ Kneel for the fallen"

                                "A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer." ~ Bruce Lee

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