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  • Wow. I take off for a couple of weeks and the reality train runs right off the rails.

    A. Pakistan isn't China's ally as much as it's a customer and a proxy to use against India if needed. Pakistan is expendable.
    B. China's other chief concern is to prevent Islamic fundamentalism from spreading into western China. A strong intelligence presence in NE Pakistan is a critical element in this effort.
    C. Pakistan has allowed it's nationals to attack other sovereign states from its soil for decades. It's a little late to be crying about sovereignty now.
    D. America is not about to "make war" on Pakistan. Our chief concern is that the Pakistani state will collapse creating a vast opportunity for Islamist militants and the risk they will get access to one or more nuclear weapons. Our support to Pakistan is intended to shore up the government against this possibility.

    From the article:
    The simmering strategic crisis between the United States and Pakistan exploded with full force on May 1, with the unilateral and unauthorized US commando raid alleged to have killed the phantomatic Osama bin Laden in a compound at Abottabad, a flagrant violation of Pakistan’s national sovereignty. The timing of this military stunt designed to inflame tensions between the two countries had nothing to do with any alleged Global War on Terror, and everything to do with the late March visit to Pakistan of Prince Bandar, the Saudi Arabian National Security Council chief. This visit had resulted in a de facto alliance between Islamabad and Riyadh, with Pakistan promising troops to put down any US-backed color revolution in the kingdom, while extending nuclear protection to the Saudis, thus making them less vulnerable to US extortion threats to abandon the oil-rich monarchy to the tender mercies of Tehran. A joint move by Pakistan and Saudi Arabia to break out of the US empire, whatever one may think of these regimes, would represent a fatal blow for the fading US empire in South Asia.
    If it had a punch line I'd suspect that was written by the Onion.
    Any metaphor will tear if stretched over too much reality.

    Questions about our site? See the FAQ.

    Comment


    • China Dan, nice post! Richtoven, I must confess I found your 'crushing' comment to be hilarious, but note you have nuanced it somewhat. (And G88 certainly qualified his view.) But as to any U.S. - China conflict, wouldn't it also cut back demand for China's products overseas, thereby impacting China's internal economy? China is traditionally a land power, whereas the U.S. is traditionally a sea power. I believe we've see classic examples of how such a conflict impacts upon the warring powers as far back as Boney's time, and as late as 1914-18. And, if memory serves, the maritime power was triumphant on both occasions. (written to the tune of Rule Britannia, Britannia rules the waves...)

      ps, I ignored the Peloponnesian affair as too remote.
      dit: Lirelou

      Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá ǵ!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ChinaDan View Post
        Exactly how would someone record people being forced to learn Chinese or being forced into marriage with Chinese or their country being colonized by the Chinese? Are we assuming there are Chinese soldiers standing on the corner yelling,"you must learn Chinese"? They would also have to do this in English for the average tourist to understand what was being said. Of course that is not how it is done, instead you make all business transactions legal only if done in Chinese. You teach Chinese (and English)only in the schools ignoring the native tongue. Do you really think that if a police action is about to happen, the local authorities are going to allow tourists to stand around with cameras and cell phones and record what happens? What the Chinese are doing in these places is of an insidious nature which is generally how they operate.

        Judging from your CD or DVD comment, I will assume you are unclear on what a proxy or the Chinese firewall does. For example: If I type Tianamen Square into google while sitting behind the Chinese firewall, not only will I not be able to reach any of the links presented by the search engine, I will also temporarily lose my connection if I click on them. This is no accident. The Chinese censor a lot of information. I included several search terms for you and gave you a website not to mention included an anecdotal experience. I also gave you a Chinese website that sometimes has some shocking behavior exhibited on it that might give you a clearer picture of Chinese culture. I don't think it matters if I give you links or not. You will only see what you want to see. You dismiss Tibetan unrest as ancient history, yes, all the way back to 2008. It is such a kinder China now.



        Gunner...Target Cease fire....prepare to continue to engage incomming Red lovers.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by lirelou View Post
          China Dan, nice post! Richtoven, I must confess I found your 'crushing' comment to be hilarious, but note you have nuanced it somewhat. (And G88 certainly qualified his view.) But as to any U.S. - China conflict, wouldn't it also cut back demand for China's products overseas, thereby impacting China's internal economy? China is traditionally a land power, whereas the U.S. is traditionally a sea power. I believe we've see classic examples of how such a conflict impacts upon the warring powers as far back as Boney's time, and as late as 1914-18. And, if memory serves, the maritime power was triumphant on both occasions. (written to the tune of Rule Britannia, Britannia rules the waves...)

          ps, I ignored the Peloponnesian affair as too remote.
          Perhaps I should clarify: I don't mean China could actually "destroy" the US, and vice-versa. What I meant was any attempt by the US to invade Pakistan against Chinese defenders would end in defeat, and for vice-versa, the Chinese perhaps would still win. It's simply their local power. It's FAR easier to win a war a short distance away than it is from halfway around the world, and China's military is far from weak.

          However, at this point, China would have no luck anywhere outside their local sphere. Their navy is too small to deal with the likes of the USN and its allies' navies, hence why China's international power projection is so low.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by ChinaDan View Post
            Exactly how would someone record people being forced to learn Chinese or being forced into marriage with Chinese or their country being colonized by the Chinese? Are we assuming there are Chinese soldiers standing on the corner yelling,"you must learn Chinese"? They would also have to do this in English for the average tourist to understand what was being said. Of course that is not how it is done, instead you make all business transactions legal only if done in Chinese. You teach Chinese (and English)only in the schools ignoring the native tongue. Do you really think that if a police action is about to happen, the local authorities are going to allow tourists to stand around with cameras and cell phones and record what happens? What the Chinese are doing in these places is of an insidious nature which is generally how they operate.
            Wow. Bravo, bravo. You can stop ranting now, please.

            1) How to record people being a) forced to learn chinese, b) being forced to marry chinese, c) their country being colonized?

            With regards to a), if you will notice, I initially ASKED you for your basis for your statements. Now, as it turns out, your basis for saying THEY ARE BEING FORCED TO LEARN CHINESE is because only business transactions in Chinese are legal? WOW! That's a good way to force people to learn the national language! What about here? Our teachings are in English, our court procedures are in English, our contracts are in English... are we, perchance, being FORCED TO LEARN ENGLISH TOO???

            Wait, what about our own indigenous peoples, who have their own language? What about our regions, where they have their own local dialects/language? WHAT??? They're being forced to learn to talk in PILIPINO, our NATIONAL LANGUAGE, and schools to be more "competitive internationally" teach in ENGLISH, GEEZE, THEY MUST BE FORCED TO LEARN ENGLISH, TOO, RIGHT?? Wow, ChinaDan, you're really an eye opener! Whew, keep it up!

            Regarding letter b), again, let me ask your for basis, as you've only given a basis (albeit a bad one) for letter a).

            Regarding letter c), what "country" are you talking about? How is it being "colonized"? If you can explain behind your Great Firewall, pls. do so.

            2)
            Do you really think that if a police action is about to happen, the local authorities are going to allow tourists to stand around with cameras and cell phones and record what happens?
            Oh, this is a beaut. No, I don't expect tourists to simply stand around if there's any commotion among locals going on, irregardless of what the "local authorities" might or might not allow. WHAT I DO EXPECT, though, is the underground network of certain groups to be able to arrange for ANY RECORDING of any EVIDENCE OF HARASSMENT, commotion, beating, etc. to be taken out of the country and publicized. It's in simple english, so I hope you understand what I wrote.

            3) Regarding schools in Tibet: you better read up some more on your topic, or maybe try to base your statements on something other than hearsay/gossip/rumors. THERE ARE SCHOOLS IN TIBET THAT TEACH THE LOCAL LANGUAGE. Need more be said?

            4) "insidious nature"? Sounds eeeevil. Again, care to CLARIFY, rather than simply making blanket UNSUPPORTED statements?



            Judging from your CD or DVD comment, I will assume you are unclear on what a proxy or the Chinese firewall does. For example: If I type Tianamen Square into google while sitting behind the Chinese firewall, not only will I not be able to reach any of the links presented by the search engine, I will also temporarily lose my connection if I click on them. This is no accident. The Chinese censor a lot of information
            .

            Oh, I'm aware of China censoring the internet. One cannot go around in any forum without someone making a comment about it. I believe there've been some quite good threads/discussion in this forum about that.

            And my CD or DVD comment was just an EXAMPLE of how easy it is to SMUGGLE OUT any recording WITHOUT HAVING TO GO THROUGH THE Chinese firewall. IF, of course, there's any to smuggle out. COME ON, we're not born yesterday!!! How many outbound passengers have their luggages opened and their CDs or DVDs watched??? Their cellphones reviewed for any recordings? Heck, their USBs plugged and scanned in airport security?? One? Two? NONE?


            I included several search terms for you and gave you a website not to mention included an anecdotal experience. I also gave you a Chinese website that sometimes has some shocking behavior exhibited on it that might give you a clearer picture of Chinese culture.
            What anecdotal experience?? Other than to say a student (?) said something GENERAL about something?

            Sure, search terms are good. But that's in now way supportive of what you wrote. IF you have ANY BASIS for what you wrote, PLS. WRITE THEM DOWN. Take note, I did not only ask for supporting articles (although those would be good), I asked for your BASIS. It can be your personal experience (ie, you've been to Tibet, you've talked to so-and-so, or maybe you've seen so-and-so). IT CAN BE ANYTHING, but to make such sweeping statements in your original post without stating ANY BASIS except to say that you're behind the Chinese firewall... and to somehow imagine/imply that being in a place makes one more CREDIBLE or an expert/authority of that place... and then later on state that you don't really care if others (I) believe you or not... well, I find that... hmmm vaguely and intellectually disquieting, to say the least.


            I don't think it matters if I give you links or not. You will only see what you want to see. You dismiss Tibetan unrest as ancient history, yes, all the way back to 2008. It is such a kinder China now.

            There you go again, making another statement. This seems to be becoming your trademark. How will you know, or how can you say, since YOU'VE NEVER GIVEN ANY LINKS YET? (aside from chinasmack, that is, and one would hardly call it a good "source" for this topic)

            And I don't dismiss Tibetan unrest as ANCIENT HISTORY. Puh-leeease. That "ancient history" reply was my reply to Persephone's MING DYNASTY post. Is there something wrong with your english? Or are you simply so hell-bent on twisting other people's words?


            ----------

            Nice post? Hardly. It's a magnificent post. Truly.
            Last edited by GMan88; 04 Jun 11, 20:41.
            "We have no white flag."

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Ricthofen View Post
              Perhaps I should clarify: I don't mean China could actually "destroy" the US, and vice-versa. What I meant was any attempt by the US to invade Pakistan against Chinese defenders would end in defeat, and for vice-versa, the Chinese perhaps would still win. It's simply their local power. It's FAR easier to win a war a short distance away than it is from halfway around the world, and China's military is far from weak.

              However, at this point, China would have no luck anywhere outside their local sphere. Their navy is too small to deal with the likes of the USN and its allies' navies, hence why China's international power projection is so low.
              I think if it should come to such a confrontation, the nuclear deterrent will come into play. It's hard to imagine 2 nuclear armed nations slugging it out without things turning a bit too hot...
              "We have no white flag."

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Ricthofen View Post
                Perhaps I should clarify: I don't mean China could actually "destroy" the US, and vice-versa. What I meant was any attempt by the US to invade Pakistan against Chinese defenders would end in defeat, and for vice-versa, the Chinese perhaps would still win. It's simply their local power. It's FAR easier to win a war a short distance away than it is from halfway around the world, and China's military is far from weak.

                However, at this point, China would have no luck anywhere outside their local sphere. Their navy is too small to deal with the likes of the USN and its allies' navies, hence why China's international power projection is so low.


                Please present a reasonable scenario where the most logical course of action for the US is to invade Pakistan.
                Any metaphor will tear if stretched over too much reality.

                Questions about our site? See the FAQ.

                Comment


                • Sorry, I don't read Troll

                  Hi, just so you know, I make it a point not to read Troll postings. I regret not recognizing you right away as one of these people GeeMan. So, feel free to rant and rave all you want, I will ignore your poorly typed postings. For your benefit, however, I will include one link in all my posts from now on...

                  http://dictionary.reference.com/

                  There, now you can look up the big words...

                  I did notice in one of your rants to another posting that you mentioned having a "local" contact. Since you live in Manila, is that a bar girl who looks Chinese?

                  Just wondering, are you one of those old white men living in the Philippines dating young, impoverished women 40 years younger than you?

                  Just kidding you, German88
                  I smell Troll...too bad the ignore list can't get rid of that

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by ChinaDan View Post
                    Hi, just so you know, I make it a point not to read Troll postings. I regret not recognizing you right away as one of these people GeeMan. So, feel free to rant and rave all you want, I will ignore your poorly typed postings. For your benefit, however, I will include one link in all my posts from now on...

                    http://dictionary.reference.com/

                    There, now you can look up the big words...

                    I did notice in one of your rants to another posting that you mentioned having a "local" contact. Since you live in Manila, is that a bar girl who looks Chinese?

                    Just wondering, are you one of those old white men living in the Philippines dating young, impoverished women 40 years younger than you?

                    Just kidding you, German88
                    Hi ChinaDan,

                    I really enjoyed reading yours posts here. I understand what you say, I've been to China and have seen it with my own eyes. I've tried to explain it to GMan as well, but without "links" to credible sources, he will brush it off as nonsense. Some of the things that go on in China are known but not written, so sometimes it's hard to prove to those that have never been there.

                    GMan is a good guy. He and I had a similar issue(s) a while back. But now we get along great. I am proud to call him a friend. It took a while to figure him out. He just wants proof to back up any claims. That's reasonable, IMO. Once I do that, he comes around, sort of.

                    We still get into heated discussions every now and then, but that's what this forum is all about. Debating issues and coming to an understanding.

                    It's too bad you are limited to what you can search for. I'm sure there is so much you can contribute, if it weren't for that.
                    That was one of the annoying things with me when visiting China. I don't like the restrictions, not one bit.

                    Maggie
                    "Stand for the flag ~ Kneel for the fallen"

                    "A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer." ~ Bruce Lee

                    Comment


                    • More carrot, same stick

                      I wish I had included in the poll more options that use the "carrot" options of the "carrot and stick" method. Some of these could be advising/helping China in things with food safety, worker safety, mine safety, etc. China might very well resist some or all of these suggestions based upon pride and based upon (not unrealistic) fears of US intelligence agencies exploiting these, but it would be the decent thing to do, and China ultimately might accept some of this help.

                      I think it's fair to say the US has probably the best overall expertise in such areas. (I would say this expertise is often subverted in the US by the political and legal processes, but that is a different issue)

                      What are some "carrot" approaches that could work and might be accepted by the Chinese? Is there anything the Chinese can offer the US?

                      Comment


                      • More stick less carrot

                        I understand wanting to use peaceful means to influence the Chinese but I don't think it really works here. As far as I can tell, they are most impressed by strength and wealth. They are given to read a lot into symbols, such as winning more gold medals than the US in the Olympics, building the fastest supercomputer, building the tallest building...that sort of thing. If we really want to hold them in check, we should make sure they are aware that we really are stronger than them. Deal with them from a position of strength, for example, the new rail guns for our ships. I am sure that is something they respect. Also, making a genuine deal here is very hard to do, many companies have tried to enter the Chinese market only to find their access is limited more than expected. The Chinese in the meantime have copied or stolen as much of the company's technology as possible.

                        Recently, many of my students have stated that they believe China has been so successful economically because they make things better than everyone else. There are stores named Made In China now to capitalize on these assumptions. Chinese students and people can be invincible in their ignorance on things, so there is no room for debate about the quality of their products. This is a new development in their thinking.

                        FYI: the average Chinese person believes the goverment has their best interests at heart, no matter how much evidence to the contrary that is presented to them. For example, in the city where I live, the local govt. has been instructed to reduce power usage. Their solution is a simple one, cut off the power periodically. The fact they chose to do this during the winter and at the schools is what I found objectionable. My students when questioned about it all gave the same answer about the govt. doing what is best for them. My question about doing it when the weather was better was met with blank stares.

                        There are only 4 channels on Chinese TV. One is CCTV, a news channel of sorts, one shows Beijing opera and classical music occasionally, another is for historical dramas about the old empire and finally, one is all military dramas showing the awful occupation by the Japanese. The Chinese military prevails single-handedly in all of these.
                        I smell Troll...too bad the ignore list can't get rid of that

                        Comment


                        • FYI: I put some pics up of the New Fake Great Wall that has been built in Hubei province.
                          I smell Troll...too bad the ignore list can't get rid of that

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by GMan88 View Post
                            I think if it should come to such a confrontation, the nuclear deterrent will come into play. It's hard to imagine 2 nuclear armed nations slugging it out without things turning a bit too hot...
                            My thoughts exactly. Unlikely as any military action in Pakistan is, the US-China issue would play out just like the US-Soviet Union conflicts; mutually-assured destruction and nuclear deterrent.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ChinaDan View Post
                              Hi, just so you know, I make it a point not to read Troll postings. I regret not recognizing you right away as one of these people GeeMan. So, feel free to rant and rave all you want, I will ignore your poorly typed postings. For your benefit, however, I will include one link in all my posts from now on...

                              http://dictionary.reference.com/

                              There, now you can look up the big words...

                              I did notice in one of your rants to another posting that you mentioned having a "local" contact. Since you live in Manila, is that a bar girl who looks Chinese?

                              Just wondering, are you one of those old white men living in the Philippines dating young, impoverished women 40 years younger than you?

                              Just kidding you, German88

                              See, now you put up a link you commonly use. Thanks, but I don't have a problem with english comprehension (see, I was FORCED to learn it, I don't know, what with everyone else having to speak it). And, what big words? I've never read you use even one.

                              So now that your post has been answered POINT BY POINT, since you can't answer you resort to calling "Troll postings" That's great, it shows how great your mind is. Lack an answer? Hey, why not call it a troll posting? And a "poorly typed" one at that

                              And by the way, since we all have to work to live, and we all get taxed when we work, the goverment must be FORCING us to pay in order to live, eh? Like we owe our lives to our government, eh? Oh, and never mind that a nation has a NATIONAL LANGUAGE, they're not supposed to learn it, they're supposed to use it at their leisure. Never mind that we have so many tribes/dialects over here, after all we don't need to speak a COMMON LANGUAGE.

                              Now I'm the one ranting... hahaha... what a joke. That's really sad, ChinaDan. Is that how you see the Philippines? As a place to pick up bar girls, and as a place where old foreigners can pick up young impoverished Filipinas? Shame, dude. That's truly shameful.
                              Last edited by GMan88; 05 Jun 11, 17:54.
                              "We have no white flag."

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Persephone View Post
                                Hi ChinaDan,

                                I really enjoyed reading yours posts here. I understand what you say, I've been to China and have seen it with my own eyes. I've tried to explain it to GMan as well, but without "links" to credible sources, he will brush it off as nonsense. Some of the things that go on in China are known but not written, so sometimes it's hard to prove to those that have never been there.

                                GMan is a good guy. He and I had a similar issue(s) a while back. But now we get along great. I am proud to call him a friend. It took a while to figure him out. He just wants proof to back up any claims. That's reasonable, IMO. Once I do that, he comes around, sort of.

                                We still get into heated discussions every now and then, but that's what this forum is all about. Debating issues and coming to an understanding.

                                It's too bad you are limited to what you can search for. I'm sure there is so much you can contribute, if it weren't for that.
                                That was one of the annoying things with me when visiting China. I don't like the restrictions, not one bit.

                                Maggie

                                Thanks, Maggie, I think

                                IF you'll note, though, I was only asking how he was able to say that the Tibetans were being "forced" to learn chinese. And it came out that there's not a policy per se, but merely the fact that only chinese contracts are considered legal (which, if you will note, I took his word for).

                                Which led me to think, if there's a national language (like we do here, which is Pilipino), schools are MANDATED to use that to teach, irregardless of the local dialects. Which again led me to question, what's so wrong with considering only contracts in chinese as legal? Because once one goes to court regarding some contract misunderstanding, one can hardly expect the Supreme Court or the Court of Appeals to be able to translate word for word any appeals and evidence done in language other than what they should know. Right? It seemed simple enough, which is why I questioned ChinaDan. And which led his calling it a Troll post. As far as I know, ALL provinces in China are required to learn Mandarin their national language, and even civil service examinations are in Mandarin. It's not a means to erode TIBETAN identity (and it doesn't affect only Tibetans), it's something that's implemented NATIONWIDE. (same as here in the Philippines) I don't know, maybe because it's their national language?

                                I have no problem with you (or anyone else) giving their impressions. Take note, I've stated in my first reply post that there are some that I agree/disagree with; but before anything else I thought to raise the question about Tibetans (allegedly) being forced to learn chinese as a very important issue, and one I was very curious about, so I wanted to get that out of the way before I commented on his other points.

                                Sigh. I remember when I was a noob here and started posting, people ASKED for sources from me even though I had thought it was general enough knowledge not to require a source. Which is why I'm a bit surprised that when some claims are made in this thread, nobody else bothered to ask for a source.

                                Anyway, thanks for the post.


                                GMan


                                PS: I'm also proud (and happy) to call you friend.
                                Last edited by GMan88; 05 Jun 11, 18:07.
                                "We have no white flag."

                                Comment

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