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  • Newly powerful China

    This caught my attention:

    Newly powerful China defies Western nations with remarks, policies

    By John Pomfret
    Washington Post Staff Writer
    Monday, March 15, 2010

    China's shift is occurring throughout society, and is reflected in government policy and in a new attitude toward the West. Over the past year, the government of President Hu Jintao has rolled back market-oriented reforms by encouraging China's state-owned enterprises to forcibly buy private firms. In the past weeks, China announced plans to force Western companies to turn over their most sensitive technology and patents to Chinese competitors in exchange for access to the country's markets.
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  • #2
    I'd disagree on the writer on one main thing; Newly powerful China?
    The Chinese would think of this as typical western short term analysis. The chinese civilization has been around for 5,000+ years. That they have been relatively weak for the last 2-300 means nothingn to them. Their time horizons are much broader than that.
    To the west, China is newly ascendant - to the Chinese, they are merely returning to their past glory.

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    • #3
      The chinese civilization has been around for 5,000+ years
      That's their claim. Certainly the civilizations that produced China have been around that long, and likely longer. I saw a strong argument for China having a 3,200 year old history. Wish I had copied the link. Korea also claims 5,000+ years, but that includes 1,800 years of Dangun's reign. That has pretty much been debunked by this author's thesis: http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/PAICON.html I'm waiting to see if any serious Chinese scholarship does the same.
      dit: Lirelou

      Phong trần mi một lưỡi gươm, Những loi gi o ti cơm s g!

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      • #4
        Originally posted by lirelou View Post
        That's their claim. Certainly the civilizations that produced China have been around that long, and likely longer. I saw a strong argument for China having a 3,200 year old history. Wish I had copied the link. Korea also claims 5,000+ years, but that includes 1,800 years of Dangun's reign. That has pretty much been debunked by this author's thesis: http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/PAICON.html I'm waiting to see if any serious Chinese scholarship does the same.
        You are using a Korean nationalist to debunk Chinese history? Seriously?

        Communist Party -1949-present
        Republic of China 1912-1949
        Qing Dynasty 1644-1912
        Ming Dyansty 1368-1644
        Yuan Dynasty 1271-1368
        Song Dynasty 960-1271
        Tang Dynasty 618-907

        Then there is the Sui, Northern Wei, the Jin, the Han, and the Qin.

        China has been a political entity longer than any European nation that exist today.
        Last edited by IDonT4; 15 Mar 10, 21:36.

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        • #5
          If you read my post carefully, I am using a Korean-American Archeologist 's debunking of Korea's 5,000 year myth to make the point that serious Chinese scholarship might just do the same with China's. It is generally agreed that China has the longest chain of governance among the world's nations, but 5,000 years can be questioned. And, of course, China's existence as a state includes periods of rule by conquering foreigners, v.g. the Yuan and Qing. IF we do the same for Europe, many of those nations can get a respectable one to two thousand years or more. (Nos ancetres, les gaulois, etc...)
          dit: Lirelou

          Phong trần mi một lưỡi gươm, Những loi gi o ti cơm s g!

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          • #6
            Originally posted by GCoyote View Post
            This caught my attention:

            Newly powerful China defies Western nations with remarks, policies

            By John Pomfret
            Washington Post Staff Writer
            Monday, March 15, 2010



            May require site registration.
            From the article you linked to:

            China's policy changes have met with opposition. Not all of its efforts to nationalize private companies have succeeded. And China's plans to compel Western businesses to share their technology have prompted a backlash from a community that does not like to criticize China openly. On that front, Wen on Sunday seemed to give in a little.

            "I must say I am still not in very close touch with foreign businessmen doing work in China," he acknowledged. "In the next three years I will create more opportunities . . . to listen to your views."
            The situations is not quite as "dire" as your quote alone would make it seem.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Desert King View Post
              I'd disagree on the writer on one main thing; Newly powerful China?
              The Chinese would think of this as typical western short term analysis. The chinese civilization has been around for 5,000+ years. That they have been relatively weak for the last 2-300 means nothingn to them. Their time horizons are much broader than that.
              To the west, China is newly ascendant - to the Chinese, they are merely returning to their past glory.
              I doubt they have such extensive time horizons since that would actually dwarf their recent achievements and the meager 61-year history of the Communist Dynasty. So when it comes to their current achievements they will relish in them and put them at the forefront, but when it comes to foreigners' claims of achievements they will pull out the dusty claim of a 5,000 year history. It's a nationalist gimmick seen in other countries too.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Imperial View Post
                I doubt they have such extensive time horizons since that would actually dwarf their recent achievements and the meager 61-year history of the Communist Dynasty. So when it comes to their current achievements they will relish in them and put them at the forefront, but when it comes to foreigners' claims of achievements they will pull out the dusty claim of a 5,000 year history. It's a nationalist gimmick seen in other countries too.
                Yep. The modern PRC/mainland China has no historical basis to link itself to any of the historical Sinitic Dynasties of the past - beyond what archeologists can dig up and display in museums of course.

                Thanks to the Qing Dynasty banning much of traditional culture, and the communists destroying much of whatever was left...traditional culture is pretty much dead.

                Hell, I've seen more of many aspects of traditional Sintic culture better preserved in Taiwan/ROC, Japan, and Korea than in mainland China!
                Last edited by Intranetusa; 16 Mar 10, 13:41.
                Surrender? NutZ!
                -Varro

                Regard your soldiers as your children, and they will follow you into the deepest valleys; look on them as your own beloved sons, and they will stand by you even unto death. -Sun Tzu

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                • #9
                  Several good comments, but some of you missed my point.

                  The Chinese are proud of their current performance for good reason.

                  But they do not make decisions based on 5 year performance; They were in no hurry to take over Hong Kong or other western colonies.

                  An allied officer visiting China in the 80s told me that when asked how long before the PLA was strong enough to retake Taiwan, he frankly said if needed they could take it over when the government ordered (and there is no reason to doubt his claim). However, he said, the stated long term goal of the leadership was economic growth, and any war would damage that.

                  This was in the 80s when China was nowhere near the economic giant it is today, and yet they were still patiently following a plan that looked 50 years into the future.

                  The reason Chinese artifacts are better preserved in other countries is because the Cultural Revolutionaries went out of their way to ruin anytihng of cultural value.

                  Even the Cultural Revolution can show how different Chinese time horizons are: it took TEN YEARS before Chinese leadership grudgingly admitted that it may not be the best plan (understantement of the century)

                  Compare that to western decision makers, who have politicians screaming 2 weeks into a new plan.

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                  • #10
                    The reason Chinese artifacts are better preserved in other countries is because the Cultural Revolutionaries went out of their way to ruin anytihng of cultural value.
                    Yes, the National Palace museum in Taiwan remains the world's premiere Chinese museum. Luckily for mainland China, the three gorges dam project has resulted in a treasure trove that will restore the mainland's eminence, and eventually allow them to gloss over the cultural revolution.
                    dit: Lirelou

                    Phong trần mi một lưỡi gươm, Những loi gi o ti cơm s g!

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                    • #11
                      When I went to Greece, in a tour of the Parthenon our tour guide said that they were in the process of negotiating with the British museum which had a lot of their artifacts for their return. I wonder if the same can be said for china regarding their looted treasures?
                      "We have no white flag."

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                      • #12
                        The Chinese would certainly have cause for anything taken from the Summer Palace. Most of the Chinese treasures I've seen in American museums (Peabody Museum, etc) were likely purchased back in the 19th Century quite openly, Things like Ming porcelains, silk scrolls, bronze ware, etc. Of course, they were far cheaper in those days.
                        dit: Lirelou

                        Phong trần mi một lưỡi gươm, Những loi gi o ti cơm s g!

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                        • #13
                          I guess so. I'd heard that the british loot was around 300 wagonsload (unconfirmed), and that the Summer Palace burned for 3 days and nights. What a waste.
                          "We have no white flag."

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                          • #14
                            Well it is said that the largest museums housing Chinas artifacts are located in London, Berlin, Paris and NewYork.
                            Having seen many museums in China - all I can say is they really don't have much if not to say anything to show.

                            Most was "taken care off" in 1865? when Britsih and French forces first looted Beijing and again in 1900/1901 by the 8 Foreign powers.
                            The bit remaining in China was taken to taiwan in 1949 and other items were sadly destroyed during the mindless culture revolution.

                            As for today's China - they are extremely hard working people and look proudly upon themselves without being arrogant IMHO. They admire the West for its chance to develop since 1945 - and naturally wan't to catch up as fast as possible.

                            As for private companies being taken over by the government, I would say that this is only partially true and only in regards to mega sized companies since a single powerman/company such as Bill Gates does not fit into the socialist governments mindset.

                            As for enforcing technology transfer - I could not confirm that either - there are rules in regards to partsmanufacturing and assembly percentages of foreign companies e.g. Mercedes:
                            They need to fullfill a 45% parts purchase via Chinese companies. In order to get in their cars without paying import duty.

                            As such a C200 Auto is about 15% cheaper then the same modell in Germany.

                            Since many German and foreign supplier companies of the present Mercedes Benz company do not follow to China (A foreign invest company is also considered to be a Chinese Company) the suppliers are in many cases pure Chinese companies and as such a technology transfer is automatically taking place due to quality criterias by the foreign OEM's.

                            An aquaintance of mine is manager for an aircraft builder and there is no forcing of technology transfer either - besides transfering QS issues and as such technology transfer in the OEM's own interest since the purchased parts are about 25-40% cheaper as in the USA or Europe.

                            Regards
                            WildeSau

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                            • #15
                              well, i do hope that cultural treasures are eventually returned to their home country, whether china or greece, or wherever.
                              "We have no white flag."

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