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  • Japan and Russia talks for Islands Dispute

    As I am watching Japan and Russia Talk about Island Dispute, it struck me. Why is US not involved in this island dispute?

    As Abe is trying to kiss Putin's rear, I just realized that Russian will be getting more attack submarines and also the mother of all subs, "Red October Class" Borei Class, Typhoon Class Missile Boat deployed in their Pacific Fleet.

    This then it struck me, Chinese PLAN journal mentioned that Russian aggressive attitude and tactics works well against US, and also some of the critics of the US pointed out that some of the stunts US used against China; they don't dare use that against Russia because of their shoot first and ask no question later attitude.

    Isn't Japan US biggest Ally, and we are not helping Japanese to regain Kuril Islands?

    Is USN Pacific Fleet avoiding confrontation with Russian Pacific Fleet? I know certainly Tu-95 Bears constantly buzzing Hokkaido Island, and US response?

    Just why we are actively pushing back the Chinese, but not the Russians?
    Nice is heavy on my mind.
    I pray and wish the best for France.

  • #2
    Because the Chinese are the enemy.
    Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by MSGT MSC USAR View Post
      As I am watching Japan and Russia Talk about Island Dispute, it struck me. Why is US not involved in this island dispute?

      As Abe is trying to kiss Putin's rear, I just realized that Russian will be getting more attack submarines and also the mother of all subs, "Red October Class" Borei Class, Typhoon Class Missile Boat deployed in their Pacific Fleet.

      This then it struck me, Chinese PLAN journal mentioned that Russian aggressive attitude and tactics works well against US, and also some of the critics of the US pointed out that some of the stunts US used against China; they don't dare use that against Russia because of their shoot first and ask no question later attitude.

      Isn't Japan US biggest Ally, and we are not helping Japanese to regain Kuril Islands?

      Is USN Pacific Fleet avoiding confrontation with Russian Pacific Fleet? I know certainly Tu-95 Bears constantly buzzing Hokkaido Island, and US response?

      Just why we are actively pushing back the Chinese, but not the Russians?
      A much clearer title to the islands is had by Russia than China. Although I am not completely sold on Russia claim to the island I can at least undsterstand it. It is near Russia and not a few hundred miles away.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by craven View Post
        A much clearer title to the islands is had by Russia than China. Although I am not completely sold on Russia claim to the island I can at least undsterstand it. It is near Russia and not a few hundred miles away.
        Thanks for your response. By your logic, shouldn't Falklands be returned to Argentines then? UK should not have any claim to it?
        Nice is heavy on my mind.
        I pray and wish the best for France.

        Comment


        • #5
          Naw England has a pretty clear title to that piece of rock. The other criteria I try and stay with is limit the amount of going back in the Past.

          Overall I don't think Argentina ever had rights to that island always belonged to someone from Europe.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by craven View Post
            Naw England has a pretty clear title to that piece of rock. The other criteria I try and stay with is limit the amount of going back in the Past.

            Overall I don't think Argentina ever had rights to that island always belonged to someone from Europe.
            Well, on the same token, China has administered the Spratlys since Yuan Dynasty, 13th Century, not to mention after WW2, Taipei Treaty disposed Spratlys from Japan to China (ROC).
            Nice is heavy on my mind.
            I pray and wish the best for France.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by MSGT MSC USAR View Post
              Well, on the same token, China has administered the Spratlys since Yuan Dynasty, 13th Century, not to mention after WW2, Taipei Treaty disposed Spratlys from Japan to China (ROC).
              if they say so and remember I said you do not get to fire up the way back machine to much Or it could be said they belong to Mongolia

              And didn't china give up all rights to them in the Sino Japan war in the 1890s

              at some point you end up arguing well they belonged to Adam or Eve

              your right they were given to the US by the peace treaty with plans to give them to the nationalist

              Communist china did not get them from WW2 The nationist did at best for your arguement. But clear title is given to the US to admin them. It that one stupid line I pointed out the last time we had that discussion.

              Formosa is clearly spelled out in the treaty but the rest of the islands go to the US. Under that phrase US administered. So as I always tell you on this one they belong to the US if you want to follow the treaty.

              and sorry for the bad grammar I am tired

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              • #8
                Originally posted by craven View Post
                if they say so and remember I said you do not get to fire up the way back machine to much Or it could be said they belong to Mongolia

                And didn't china give up all rights to them in the Sino Japan war in the 1890s

                at some point you end up arguing well they belonged to Adam or Eve

                your right they were given to the US by the peace treaty with plans to give them to the nationalist

                Communist china did not get them from WW2 The nationist did at best for your arguement. But clear title is given to the US to admin them. It that one stupid line I pointed out the last time we had that discussion.

                Formosa is clearly spelled out in the treaty but the rest of the islands go to the US. Under that phrase US administered. So as I always tell you on this one they belong to the US if you want to follow the treaty.

                and sorry for the bad grammar I am tired
                First you may have a point about Mongolia, but they don't have a navy to enforce their claim I suppose. Also when Yuan Dynasty claimed Spratlys, they claim them as part of China not Mongolia. The map was map of China, not Mongolia.

                I submit to you.

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Sino-Japanese_War

                Result

                Chinese victory as part of the Allied victory in the Pacific War
                Surrender of all Japanese forces in mainland China (excluding Manchuria), Formosa, the Spratly Islands, the Paracel Islands, and French Indochina north of 16 north to the Republic of China
                China becomes a permanent member of the U.N. Security Council
                Resumption of the Chinese Civil War


                From Cairo Conference, Potsdam Conference, San Francisco Peace Treaty, to Taipei Treaty, to Japan-China Joint Commnique, to Shanghai US-China Communique; no where mention Spratlys and Parael is being transferred to US. In fact these were all along handed to China as part of Ally in WW2.

                And if you read Commanders in Communist participation, you will see Mao Zedong, Zhu De (who was admired by General Stilwell), and Peng Dehuai (unfortunately we had to find out his brilliance in Korea). Communists were certainly part of Ally efforts. Don't let the Cold War blinds their WW2 war efforts.

                Yes, I said Taipei Treaty given Spratlys and Paracel to ROC, but in 1972, Japan and China Communique recognize PRC as the only China. This does not relieve Japan from previous surrendering of Spratlys and Paracels. In fact UN Resolution 2758 recognized PRC as the only China in 1971. PRC does not object ROC in possession of Spratlys or Paracel, but not Vietnam or Philippines. PRC has no intention to remove ROC from Spratlys.

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan-...int_Communique
                Nice is heavy on my mind.
                I pray and wish the best for France.

                Comment


                • #9
                  How accurate is that map of China showing the territory occupied by the Japanese? There have been several articles on the Battles of Changsha in my World War II (Decision Games). In one it said that the Japanese never took Changsha. On the map I find Changsha is the Japanese occupied zone.

                  Perhaps the author meant that the Japanese did not take the town until late in the war?

                  Pruitt
                  Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                  Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                  by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                    How accurate is that map of China showing the territory occupied by the Japanese? There have been several articles on the Battles of Changsha in my World War II (Decision Games). In one it said that the Japanese never took Changsha. On the map I find Changsha is the Japanese occupied zone.

                    Perhaps the author meant that the Japanese did not take the town until late in the war?

                    Pruitt
                    Changsha was never taken by the Japanese. They tried, but failed. This was a major victory and morale boost for the Chinese.

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Changsha_(1939)
                    Nice is heavy on my mind.
                    I pray and wish the best for France.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      If the map is not accurate, what are the chances that the written articles has inaccuracies as well?

                      Pruitt
                      Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                      Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                      by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                        If the map is not accurate, what are the chances that the written articles has inaccuracies as well?

                        Pruitt
                        Which article are you referring to? Of course it's possible.
                        Nice is heavy on my mind.
                        I pray and wish the best for France.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I just did a search of Operation Ichi-Go and it appears that Changsha was taken in 1944. This was five years after the Japanese first tried to take it. Sorry, but I should have gone this route first. It just goes to show some authors do not check before making claims.

                          Pruitt
                          Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                          Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                          by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MSGT MSC USAR View Post
                            First you may have a point about Mongolia, but they don't have a navy to enforce their claim I suppose. Also when Yuan Dynasty claimed Spratlys, they claim them as part of China not Mongolia. The map was map of China, not Mongolia.

                            I submit to you.

                            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Sino-Japanese_War

                            Result

                            Chinese victory as part of the Allied victory in the Pacific War
                            Surrender of all Japanese forces in mainland China (excluding Manchuria), Formosa, the Spratly Islands, the Paracel Islands, and French Indochina north of 16 north to the Republic of China
                            China becomes a permanent member of the U.N. Security Council
                            Resumption of the Chinese Civil War


                            From Cairo Conference, Potsdam Conference, San Francisco Peace Treaty, to Taipei Treaty, to Japan-China Joint Commnique, to Shanghai US-China Communique; no where mention Spratlys and Parael is being transferred to US. In fact these were all along handed to China as part of Ally in WW2.

                            And if you read Commanders in Communist participation, you will see Mao Zedong, Zhu De (who was admired by General Stilwell), and Peng Dehuai (unfortunately we had to find out his brilliance in Korea). Communists were certainly part of Ally efforts. Don't let the Cold War blinds their WW2 war efforts.

                            Yes, I said Taipei Treaty given Spratlys and Paracel to ROC, but in 1972, Japan and China Communique recognize PRC as the only China. This does not relieve Japan from previous surrendering of Spratlys and Paracels. In fact UN Resolution 2758 recognized PRC as the only China in 1971. PRC does not object ROC in possession of Spratlys or Paracel, but not Vietnam or Philippines. PRC has no intention to remove ROC from Spratlys.

                            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan-...int_Communique
                            I point to Mongolia because they controlled China at one point hence giving them claim since it is argued that China has a claim.

                            see what happens when you start going back in time

                            They were surrendered to the US hence the US should get control since that who is Japan surrendered them to correct.

                            btw you provided the document where I found that peace of information

                            if I remember correctly it was one of the sub parts of the surrender treaty. I know Formosa and may a couple of other Islands were actually spelled out as going to ROC but everything else went to US Admin

                            from the reading of them no one wanted to sit down and deal with every single one of those islands in 1945 Everyone just wanted the war to be over. and how much were they worth really in their minds.

                            and no one wanted to argue over the tiny specs with all the potential claimants battling over them. For example the PI was moving to self government. yadda yadda.
                            Last edited by craven; 03 Jun 16, 10:30.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I'm probably missing something but what does a dispute between Japan and Russia over the Kuril Islands have to do with China, Mongolia, or anybody else ?
                              "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
                              Samuel Johnson.

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