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The idiocy of Communism / Socialism

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  • The idiocy of Communism / Socialism

    "If you build it, they will come..."

    Cities in China devoid of people but full of massive public housing projects:

    http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/...M4?ocid=SMSDHP

  • #2
    How does this compare, in your opinion, to the mortgage crisis that started the current economical downfall?
    Wisdom is personal

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    • #3
      Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
      "If you build it, they will come..."

      Cities in China devoid of people but full of massive public housing projects:

      http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/...M4?ocid=SMSDHP
      I wonder what's the homeless rate in China, and if it's feasible to put them there?
      "We have no white flag."

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Karri View Post
        How does this compare, in your opinion, to the mortgage crisis that started the current economical downfall?
        Totally different, except that they're both idiotic mistakes relating to housing. What we had was a set of laws introduced in the 90s which allowed banks to irresponsibly grant mortgages to people who had no realistic way to pay it off in the long term. People then organized them into investment funds and invested in such a way that they were betting on them failing. When the whole thing came crashing down it dragged the housing market with it. That's the simple version anyway. The situation in China is more an example of wildly over optimistic speculation. Building entire cities on the assumption that tons of people where jusy waiting to move there. That's the problem with a planned economy, nobody ever knows what the future holds so throwing all you eggs in one speculative basket us a recipe for you to be very very wrong.
        "Artillery lends dignity to what might otherwise be a vulgar brawl." - Frederick the Great

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        • #5
          Originally posted by frisco17 View Post
          (...) That's the problem with a planned economy, nobody ever knows what the future holds so throwing all you eggs in one speculative basket us a recipe for you to be very very wrong.
          That's the problem with economy in general - it only serves as an explanation after the fact -

          rarely does it manage to predict a phenomenon - in the sense that physics or geometry do for example -

          It's not a science - it's a religion.
          Lambert of Montaigu - Crusader.

          Bolgios - Mercenary Game.

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          • #6
            It's not idiocy. If there is an earthquake or something like that, there are already houses available. Better to have his money in beton than in paper.
            There are no Nazis in Ukraine. © Idiots

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            • #7
              Originally posted by frisco17 View Post
              Totally different, except that they're both idiotic mistakes relating to housing. What we had was a set of laws introduced in the 90s which allowed banks to irresponsibly grant mortgages to people who had no realistic way to pay it off in the long term. People then organized them into investment funds and invested in such a way that they were betting on them failing. When the whole thing came crashing down it dragged the housing market with it. That's the simple version anyway. The situation in China is more an example of wildly over optimistic speculation. Building entire cities on the assumption that tons of people where jusy waiting to move there. That's the problem with a planned economy, nobody ever knows what the future holds so throwing all you eggs in one speculative basket us a recipe for you to be very very wrong.
              Not so much allowed banks to lend irresponsibly but practically compelled them to. The banks naturally sought to mitigate these high risk loans by passing them on and hence the crisis was born. All caused by socialism.
              "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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              • #8
                The Chinese public has been putting their money in conrete largely for want of choice of other things to invest in As per usual when too much money goes chasing the same things, you get a bubble. In the Chinese case the government controls (well, sort of leaves to local authorities to come up with get-rich-quick-schemes) the economy, and what choice of investment the public can make, now that it finally has been able to set by a bit of savings.

                China is not a market economy after all. It still marches to the beat of the orders of the CCP, to the extent the CCP can order things about. They certainly try. Questions rather remain to which extent the CCP can get water to flow uphill that way.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by frisco17 View Post
                  Totally different, except that they're both idiotic mistakes relating to housing. What we had was a set of laws introduced in the 90s which allowed banks to irresponsibly grant mortgages to people who had no realistic way to pay it off in the long term. People then organized them into investment funds and invested in such a way that they were betting on them failing. When the whole thing came crashing down it dragged the housing market with it. That's the simple version anyway. The situation in China is more an example of wildly over optimistic speculation. Building entire cities on the assumption that tons of people where jusy waiting to move there. That's the problem with a planned economy, nobody ever knows what the future holds so throwing all you eggs in one speculative basket us a recipe for you to be very very wrong.
                  Erm. Isn't it the same in a sense that China build too much houses because of "being overtly optimistic" and in USA the economy in turn things housing prices will rise ad infinity, ie too optimistic.
                  Wisdom is personal

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                    "If you build it, they will come..."

                    Cities in China devoid of people but full of massive public housing projects:

                    http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/...M4?ocid=SMSDHP
                    this is not due to communisis or sozaslim

                    it all about raising the GDP

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZdBeczDLpA

                    So it is the idocracy of Capitalism
                    you think you a real "bleep" solders you "bleep" plastic solders don't wory i will make you in to real "bleep" solders!! "bleep" plastic solders

                    CPO Mzinyati

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
                      That's the problem with economy in general - it only serves as an explanation after the fact -

                      rarely does it manage to predict a phenomenon - in the sense that physics or geometry do for example -

                      It's not a science - it's a religion.
                      That's exactly the point. You can't predict it so you shouldn't try, especially at a national top-down level. That's the source of the extreme inefficiency in planned economies. By contrast a free and open market has everyone making their own plans for the future, all of which are different. Some are right and some are wrong, those that get the model right survive and thrive, those that don't are no competitive.
                      "Artillery lends dignity to what might otherwise be a vulgar brawl." - Frederick the Great

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Karri View Post
                        How does this compare, in your opinion, to the mortgage crisis that started the current economical downfall?
                        The mortgage crisis was started with the same kind of Social Justice thinking that dooms Socialism, coupled with a reasonably free market that took advantage of that thinking.

                        The mortgage crisis started with Democrats wanting to make mortgages more available to poorer people (ie., people who normally couldn't qualify for a traditional mortgage). Types like, zero down, interest only, adjustable interest, and the like. While poorer people could now sometimes qualify for such mortgages, most of the market was taken up with middle and upper middle class buyers who saw an opportunity to get into real estate speculation. Typically, they bought a second home for a rental property with zero down and an "interest only" mortgage with the intent to let it appreciate then resell in a year or two when the market rose sufficiently.
                        House flippers did the same thing.

                        When the bubble burst many of these people just walked away from properties letting them go to the bank. After all, they had no investment of their own in the property with zero down and interest only payments. They were in effect, renters with rights to paper equity.

                        Compounding this, the banks and credit companies got the Consumer Credit Protection act passed. This allowed credit card companies to overnight raise their interest rates from 2 to 10% to 20%+ for the flimsiest of reasons.
                        Many consumers with large card balances found they could no longer make the payments on those cards.
                        The thinking behind this comes from the Progressive idea that government should encourage spending and discourage savings. (see Margrit Kennedy Interest and Inflation Free Money... for example) The idea behind it was to get people to turn over money more rapidly in the market by, in effect, "taxing" savings and interest.



                        Then the same idiots in Congress that did the above wrote the supposed "fix." That's Frank-Dodd. That made mortgages difficult to get, but worse, it crippled the value of homes by tying mortgages to the average cost of a home in the area of the one being bought.
                        That meant that if you upgraded or improved your house you'd never see the value of those improvements because you could only get a buyer (except a cash buyer) with a mortgage for the average in your neighborhood. So, it now was a race to the bottom on home values that flat lined. Hence, the crappy housing recovery that followed.

                        More regulation by government. More trying to manipulate the market by government. The result is a crummy housing market and slow recovery. The cure was worse than the disease, and both were caused by government interference in the market place.
                        Last edited by T. A. Gardner; 19 Feb 16, 13:54.

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                        • #13
                          Don't forget the congress critters that made a killing using subsidized loans to snap up foreclosed mortgages...

                          http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...isis/?page=all
                          Credo quia absurdum.


                          Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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                          • #14
                            I wonder, do you think capitalism is the best system, or the best system we have right now? Because sometimes reading this forum is like people are stuck in cold war, still having every fight against the godless communists and their failed system.
                            Wisdom is personal

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Karri View Post
                              I wonder, do you think capitalism is the best system, or the best system we have right now? Because sometimes reading this forum is like people are stuck in cold war, still having every fight against the godless communists and their failed system.
                              Its the best system available right now and the results speak for themselves. We can't possibly know if it is the absolute best because if something better is possible we won't know until it comes along.

                              As far as the Cold War is concerned it isn't so much a matter of being "stuck there" as it is that the ideas the Cold War was "fought" over haven't changed just because the Soviet Union collapsed. Just because there's not the same military threat anymore doesn't mean that Communism/Socialism is somehow OK now. The ideological principles are still there, one just triumphed over the other. Capitalism is still responsible for the current status is Western civilization and the highest standards of living in human history. Socialism is still a failed system that drags everyone to the lowest common denominator and is incompatible with our values of individual liberty and democracy. Did WWII ending make facism no longer evil? Are people who oppose it "stuck in WWII"?
                              "Artillery lends dignity to what might otherwise be a vulgar brawl." - Frederick the Great

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