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Why Chinese cannot forgive Japanese Imperialism

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  • #91
    Originally posted by Salinator View Post
    From my knowledge of history and even kung-fu movies, the Chinese have an incredibly long memory and would make the Italians look like whooshes when it comes to vendetta.

    Hey, even the North Koreans protest every year when the Prime Minister visit that shrine and there is no country that controls information more than the North Koreans.

    Remember that Japanese girl that arrived onto ACG a few years ago that was proudly posting pictures of her father who was a Japanese pilot during the war? She was completely flabbergasted and bewildered by some of the replies. She simply had no clue that her father was "invading" China.

    Fortune cookies were invented in America.

    Reminds me of a Seinfeld episode when George's mother dialed a wrong number and connected to some woman named "Chang". She asked for advised which she accepted until she met this "Chang" who turned to be a white woman who's real name was Changkowski. She got really mad and asked, "Why are you giving me advice.......YOU"RE NOT CHINESE!"
    Ha, g1, Salinator; I remember that one; I also remember not getting it around the first time and having to wonder what the heck that was about; then my wife explained it to me. One thing about Chinese (and other people as well but mainly Chinese for this comment), there is rational and then there's practical. Within my experience, the practical part is more relevant in general because the rational and irrational parts can then be put off. Indeed, sometimes if one is pushed to be rational, solutions don't present themselves as being practical in which case irrationality comes to the fore and the results can be proverbial. So quite often, the practical solution is employed first even though it may not be the best solution but it forms a compromise which allows everyone to muddle through the situation and not descend entirely into irrationality.

    The problem with nationalism is that it puts irrationality first so compromise is almost impossible to achieve. The idea that there must be a 'quid pro quo' of vengeance for newly discovered Japanese atrocities in China is entirely nationalistic and is a totally irrational thought.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by MSGT MSC USAR View Post
      Did we distinguish imperialist or ordinary Japanese when we dropped the bomb in Nagasaki and Hiroshima? Some may justify as I do, this is what they get for attacking Pearl Harbor without declaring war first.

      For Atrocities in China, Unit 731 Human Torture and experiments, Nanking Massacre, now this mass grave; why shouldn't the Chinese get their last saying in the mater like our mushroom cloud now that they could? They brought onto themselves I say for not reforming andacknowledging their past wrongs. Japanese doesn't even acknowledge their loss to Chinese anymore since Taipei Treaty is nullified by Japan and USA too it seems.
      Of course that's my evil side talking. My angel side is saying enough killing. Definitely from me as a former soldier, killing is never a good thing. It stays with me until I am judged by higher authority.
      Nice is heavy on my mind.
      I pray and wish the best for France.

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      • #93
        Did we distinguish imperialist or ordinary Japanese when we dropped the bomb in Nagasaki and Hiroshima? Some may justify as I do, this is what they get for attacking Pearl Harbor without declaring war first.
        I don't believe you posted that. The obvious reply is that the war was still going on. We dropped the bomb to speed up the end of the war and save American lives. It had nothing to do with revenge for Pearl Harbor. No one was even sure what the results would be at the time. The military was planning on an end to the war sometime in 1947 or 48. We only sent te OSS Deer Team into Indochina because the9 March 1945 Japanese military strike had cut off our intelligence, and we needed a presence to report on Japanese troop movements from there into southern China, where we had plans for an Allied landing in our advance on Japan.

        If the Germans hadn't folded when they did, they'd have likely felt it first.

        IdonT4: Reference the Taiwanese, I've never heard any anti-Japanese rants from the average Taiwanese. There's even a good sake made there, and Japanese tourists come down for what they say is some of the finest Chinese cuisine in Asia.
        dit: Lirelou

        Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá ǵ!

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        • #94
          Taiwanese have a positive impression/great interest in Japanese culture and many of the WW2 generation can speak both Japanese and Chinese. Japanese and English are often second languages for them.

          The Taiwanese people are heavily influenced by Japan in general. Many of the grand government buildings were built by Japanese occupation of the island.

          Even the mannerisms & social etiquette of Taiwanese people are closer to the Japanese than the mainlanders.

          Originally posted by lirelou View Post

          IdonT4: Reference the Taiwanese, I've never heard any anti-Japanese rants from the average Taiwanese. There's even a good sake made there, and Japanese tourists come down for what they say is some of the finest Chinese cuisine in Asia.
          Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
          Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
          Barbarossa Derailed I & II
          Battle of Kalinin October 1941

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          • #95
            Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post
            Taiwanese have a positive impression/great interest in Japanese culture and many of the WW2 generation can speak both Japanese and Chinese. Japanese and English are often second languages for them.

            The Taiwanese people are heavily influenced by Japan in general. Many of the grand government buildings were built by Japanese occupation of the island.

            Even the mannerisms & social etiquette of Taiwanese people are closer to the Japanese than the mainlanders.
            I would not agree with that from my personal experience. Neariy every single Taiwanese except for the older ones that I know speak English, however I don't know of a single one that speaks Japanese. If they did, they must be lying to me.

            I cannot believe that 50 years of Japanese occupation would outweigh two thousand years of being Han, not to mention that the great population boom was post-WWII.
            Last edited by Salinator; 02 May 14, 17:26.
            Prayers.


            BoRG


            http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8757/snap1ws8.jpg

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            • #96
              Originally posted by IDonT4 View Post
              I am comparing Japanese Class A war criminals to German Class A war criminals of WWII. Its as close to apples to apples as you can get.
              Not really.

              Originally posted by IDonT4 View Post
              Atonement is not public relations. If Japan sees it as that, people will see right through it.
              Its nothing but public relations.


              Originally posted by IDonT4 View Post
              Why is this so hard to comprehend. Japanese honoring the Shrine is their business. It is the fact that they are honoring it is the reason why they are not forgiven in the eyes of South Koreans, Chinese, Taiwanese, etc.
              And why is so hard for you to comprehend: so what? The Japanese don't seem to be losing sleep over it, and it certainly hasn't hurt their economic recovery. Whether they get 'forgiven' is a completely moot point. Not that anyone can measure whether they have been 'forgiven' or not.

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              • #97
                I have personal experience living in Taipei as well including fluency in Mandarin and many taiwanese contacts. The most obvious cultural difference is the excellent Taiwanese manners and attention to cleanliness that is more Japanese than Chinese. They also care a lot more about the way they dress and conduct themselves.

                Japanese and English are popular second languages. Many Taiwanese students go to Japan for graduate school.

                The Japanese and Japanese people are far more respected than the PRC and mainland Chinese. Their part in the war has been forgotten and in fact the Japanese occupation of Taiwan is seen as a net positive due to Japanese investment, infrastructure development and educational efforts.

                Mainlanders are seen as uneducated poor hicks with terrible manners & lower culture to be frank- there's a superiority thing going on here that is widen by the much higher living standard in Taiwan.

                On the television there are often a mixture of Japanese, Taiwanese, and Chinese programming.

                Originally posted by Salinator View Post
                I would not agree with that from my personal experience. Neariy every single Taiwanese except for the older ones that I know speak English, however I don't know of a single one that speaks Japanese. If they did, they must be lying to me.

                I cannot believe that 50 years of Japanese occupation would outweigh two thousand years of being Han, not to mention that the great population boom was post-WWII.
                Those 2,000 years were before the 50 years. The Japanese cultural influence however, has remained and changed them a bit although they are still Chinese. I once got into a conversation about WW2 and the subject moved to the Atomic bombs on Hiroshima. Their opinions were more Japanese than Chinese. The elderly people all spoke Japanese, Mandarin Chinese, and Taiwanese. They were taught Japanese and Mandarin in public schools when Taiwan was being occupied by the Japanese.
                Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                Battle of Kalinin October 1941

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Salinator View Post
                  Remember that Japanese girl that arrived onto ACG a few years ago that was proudly posting pictures of her father who was a Japanese pilot during the war? She was completely flabbergasted and bewildered by some of the replies. She simply had no clue that her father was "invading" China.
                  Didn't we establish that was a phony, or really stretching the truth about all that stuff?
                  Originally posted by Salinator View Post
                  Fortune cookies were invented in America.
                  IIRC, by a Chinese American.
                  Originally posted by Salinator View Post
                  Reminds me of a Seinfeld episode when George's mother dialed a wrong number and connected to some woman called "Chang". She asked for advice which she readily accepted until she met this "Chang" who turned to be a white woman who's real name was Changkowski. She got really mad and asked, "Why are you giving me advice.......YOU"RE NOT CHINESE!"
                  My point was that there is am appreciation for the differences in Eastern and Western methods of thought.
                  It is of value to both sides, these differences.
                  If allowed to do so, they compliment and strengthen each other.

                  Originally posted by lirelou View Post
                  If the Germans hadn't folded when they did, they'd have likely felt it first.
                  Yes, that was the plan, they even test-flew a B-29 over Europe.
                  "Why is the Rum gone?"

                  -Captain Jack

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
                    Didn't we establish that was a phony, or really stretching the truth about all that stuff?
                    Don't remember, but I seem to recall the controversy was more whether she was actually a she. I have talked to enough real Japanese from Japan to know they don't know all that much, if they were being honest.

                    IIRC, by a Chinese American.
                    Actually by a Japanese-American in San Francisco. There were competing claims from a Chinese-American and a Japanese-American from Los Angeles. There was actually a mock court to settle the dispute back in the eighties. One piece of evidence presented was a fortune cookie with the message inside that read "SF Judge ruling in favor of LA not Smart Cookie".

                    My point was that there is am appreciation for the differences in Eastern and Western methods of thought.
                    It is of value to both sides, these differences.
                    If allowed to do so, they compliment and strengthen each other.
                    I didn't dispute your point but reinforced it with a bit of levity using the Seinfeld episode.

                    Yes, that was the plan, they even test-flew a B-29 over Europe.
                    I actually met a WWII vet that was trained as a navigator in B-29 and was told his destination was Europe.
                    Last edited by Salinator; 03 May 14, 22:43.
                    Prayers.


                    BoRG


                    http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8757/snap1ws8.jpg

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                    • Defining Taiwanese

                      Hi All:

                      I wish to do my best and trying to define Taiwanese the best I can. The meaning of Taiwanese has changed dramatically over time due to politics and military occupations.

                      In today's Taiwanese definition is probaly someone who was born in Taiwan, like me. Although when I was in Taiwan and adapted many Taiwanese cultural and habits, true Taiwanese (especially those who are pro-Taiwanese Independent) would not because I don't speak Taiwanese as my parents were from Mainland China and migrated to Taiwan with ROC Government. But today's ROC official stand is that I would be, as the national identity card would say that I was born in Taiwan. That is all that matters. In the old identity card, there would be ancertry listed, which in my case would be Anhui Province.

                      I think what's also interesting is the change in ancestry over time. When I was young elementary school student, many would claim to be Fujianese, as they wanted to be considered a mainlander; because when Chinags (CKS and his son Ching Kuo) were in charge, mainlander would get favorble treatment than Taiwanese (Natives, although many Taiwanese would have their ancestry traced to Fujian or Canton). When Taiwanese Independent got to be popular under President Lee Teng Hui and Chen Shui Bien; many conveniently switched to Taiwanese Ancestry to get favorable treatment.

                      Some Taiwanese were collaborators to Japanese during their occupations, and they were treated as second class Japanese Citizens. They did get a lot of favorble treatments from Japanese. They mostly did adopt Japanese way of living, such as architectures (although not many are remaining these days), clothing, language, and food too. Taiwanese does make fine Japanese Food. All school were taught in Japanese, and Japanese did buid rail roads, sea ports, oil refinery in KaoHsiaong (I know these because my father was a National Oil Company Employee), air base (Tainan AirForce Base, this was based from our family friend who was American Airforoce Pilot stationed there). Taiwan was rich in Agriculcure products. Taiwanese Pineapples, Bananas, Sugar Canes, Watermelons and Rice was consider the finest in the world by Japanese, and I absolutely agree.

                      This however, was the problems between Mainlanders and Taiwanese. Mainlanders saw Taiwanese as traitors to Chinese. Taiwanese however, did not dislike Mainlanders at first. They were OK initially that ROC was taking over Taiwan. Of course the Martial Laws in Taiwan suppressed many Taiwanese opposing views did not help. Some Taiwanese felt their life was better under Japanese Occupation. And of course there was 228 event (Feb 28), where I think over 10,000 Taiwanese were slaughtered by ROC troops who protesting against ROC government. I remember that Mainlanders would prefer American Goods (like my family), and some of my classmates who were Taiwanese prefer Japanese Goods, such as car. I dad bought a one of the first Ford in Taiwan (Cortina, I understand this was a model from UK not US), and their dad would prefer to buy Toyota or Datsun.

                      Ironically the defeated Ming Dynasty Navy settled in Taiwan for sometime before Qing finally defeated them completely (like ROC has seeked Taiwan as refuge from PRC). Taiwanese initially did not have any hostility toward Chinese, I think because Ming Navy treated Taiwanese very well. They even have temples worship the leader of Ming Navy. Also when Qing took over, the Taiwanese did not resist either. There was no hate to the Qing Empird that I could observe. I think Taiwanese generally do consider themselves Chinese, only the few who probably received special treatments from Japanese.


                      I suppose the true Taiwanese should be the aboriginees. To me they look more like American Indians or Polynesians. They are not Chinese for sure. I am no experts, but their clothing seem to be very close to Native Americans, espccially their canoes (I saw this from a Taiwanese Aboriginees Museum). Most Taiwanese migrated from China Mainland sometime. Only the desparate or maybe wanted or exiled Chinese would make the trip; as I was told Taiwan Straight was a very dangers water to navigate. This call it the Black Bottoless Gutter, as many ship wrecks were noted. The Taiwanese Aboriginees absolutely were against Japanese occupations. They fought bravely against Japanese, and when Qing Empire abdicated the territory; Qing suggested that Taiwan should declare their independence.

                      Now as Taiwanese were given favorable trading status in China, they see China more as a money maker, but politically they are still a little hesistant to be completely in line with PRC. In the matter of Daoyutai Islands and South China Sea, they are more and more in line with PRC claim.

                      Hope this help to shed some light on Taiwanese.
                      Last edited by MSGT MSC USAR; 03 May 14, 18:32.
                      Nice is heavy on my mind.
                      I pray and wish the best for France.

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