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Why Chinese cannot forgive Japanese Imperialism

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
    This happened because between Germany's fall and Japan's the political landscape changed. Whatever wartime goodwill existed towards the USSR rapidly eroded away and the reality of what became the Cold War was emerging.

    Japan was needed as a bulwark against further Communist expansion.

    In addition, while on paper China was a partner in the Allied endeavors, in reality it was a very junior partner at best, in terms of the planning of the war.

    Absolutely correct. However, it does not negate the fact that Japan escaped the "punishment" that was given to Germany. The result of this escape led to certain aspects of Japanese society to color their WWII actions in a positive light or downright deny it. That is the reason why Japan is not forgiven. China is not the only one. South Korea and Taiwan have also not forgiven them.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
      This happened because between Germany's fall and Japan's the political landscape changed. Whatever wartime goodwill existed towards the USSR rapidly eroded away and the reality of what became the Cold War was emerging.

      Japan was needed as a bulwark against further Communist expansion.

      In addition, while on paper China was a partner in the Allied endeavors, in reality it was a very junior partner at best, in terms of the planning of the war.
      I don't know where you based this information on. More than half of million of Japanese Imperial Army were bogged down in China. If Chinese Nationalists did not resist Japanese, the whole Southeast Asia, South Asia include India, and Australia would probably would have been occupied by Japanese Imperial Army.

      Your General Stilwell was sent to China to help the Nationalists, but end up helping the communists along with many socalled State Department Officials (Dixi Mission) included Service Davies, etc. Patrick Hurley (US Ambassador to China at the time) gave a scathing reply to White House regarding Dixi Mission to the communists. China did not have to turn communists. You can thank Truman Administration and his liberal communists collaborators.

      Read up on more recent books regarding China. Just read the first several pages of Cambridge University Professor on China, Hans Van de Ven book first several pages of introduction in the book "War and Nationalism in China. Joseph McCarthy was NOT completely off base. FDR aide Laughlin Currie and many US Government officials in fact were in collaborating with the Soviets according to KGB Files that were made available in the 1990's. They delayed aids to Chinese Nationalists that were authorized by the Congress in assistance to the Chinese Communists.
      Nice is heavy on my mind.
      I pray and wish the best for France.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by IDonT4 View Post
        The reason why China hates Japan is very simple: lack of revenge. Next to the USSR, China suffered the most damage of any country in WWII. While the USSR ultimately made the Germans pay for their attack, China never did.

        After WWII, USSR occupied half of Germany and installed what was in effect a puppet regime. East Prussia, considered one of the heartlands of Germany, was divided between Poland and Russia (Kaliningrad Oblast). The Germans who lived there for hundreds of years were expelled. What was once East Prussia is still part of Poland and Russia. Other territories permanently lost include Pomerania and Silesia.

        Japan never had to submit to this type of "payback". They basically kept their emperor and still retained their traditional territories. They even get to keep Okinawa, which the central government conquered back in the mid 1800's.
        I all fairness, the story of the Ryukus is rather more complex. They were the 'trade and diplomatic mediator between Japan and China, and they had a strong Satsuma clan domination form the 16th century.
        The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

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        • #34
          Originally posted by marktwain View Post
          I all fairness, the story of the Ryukus is rather more complex. They were the 'trade and diplomatic mediator between Japan and China, and they had a strong Satsuma clan domination form the 16th century.
          Germany's claim to East Prussia is a hell of a lot stronger than Japan's claim to the Ryukyu's. Yet today Konigsberg is now Kaliningrad while the Ryukyu are still Japanese territory.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by MSGT MSC USAR View Post
            I don't know where you based this information on. More than half of million of Japanese Imperial Army were bogged down in China. If Chinese Nationalists did not resist Japanese, the whole Southeast Asia, South Asia include India, and Australia would probably would have been occupied by Japanese Imperial Army.
            This is true. Doesn't change a thing in terms of Chinese participation in Allied strategic planning.

            Originally posted by MSGT MSC USAR View Post
            Your General Stilwell was sent to China to help the Nationalists, but end up helping the communists along with many socalled State Department Officials (Dixi Mission) included Service Davies, etc. Patrick Hurley (US Ambassador to China at the time) gave a scathing reply to White House regarding Dixi Mission to the communists. China did not have to turn communists. You can thank Truman Administration and his liberal communists collaborators.
            I have read Stillwell's memoirs, as well as the US Army's records on Stillwell's mission-the latter is available free on line, BTW.

            Stillwell was sent to hurt the IJA in what he was fully aware of was a secondary theater, and the aid the UK in safeguarding India. He did not care for 'peanut', as he called the Generalissimo, because the Nationalists were not interested in fighting the IJA as much as stockpiling hardware for war with the communists. While neither he nor Truman saw any good in Mao's forces, the fact was they were willing to fight, and fighting was what was needed in order to keep the bulk of the IJA mired in China where it could not harm Americans.

            The US Army's history was very clear that Churchill, FDR, and especially Truman did not regard the Nationalists as anything but a minor ally, useful for tying down IJA troops. Truman did not have much if any faith that the nationalists would prevail after the war.

            Originally posted by MSGT MSC USAR View Post
            Read up on more recent books regarding China. Just read the first several pages of Cambridge University Professor on China, Hans Van de Ven book first several pages of introduction in the book "War and Nationalism in China. Joseph McCarthy was NOT completely off base. FDR aide Laughlin Currie and many US Government officials in fact were in collaborating with the Soviets according to KGB Files that were made available in the 1990's. They delayed aids to Chinese Nationalists that were authorized by the Congress in assistance to the Chinese Communists.
            Stillwell was trying to curtail aid to the nationalists as early as 1943; he felt that they had no future in China unless peanut got his army free of the corruption and modernized it. He clearly predicted that unless a conflict could be avoided, Mao would win.

            The nationalists were a wartime expedience. the day Japan surrendered they became irrelevant. Remember, it was FDR who considered China to be critical, politically. Truman had no such opinion.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by IDonT4 View Post
              Germany's claim to East Prussia is a hell of a lot stronger than Japan's claim to the Ryukyu's. Yet today Konigsberg is now Kaliningrad while the Ryukyu are still Japanese territory.
              Don ,the technique of 'reduction ad absurdum' get s used too often, and its a game I don't play.

              Every case- on its own merits.

              The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by IDonT4 View Post
                Germany's claim to East Prussia is a hell of a lot stronger than Japan's claim to the Ryukyu's. Yet today Konigsberg is now Kaliningrad while the Ryukyu are still Japanese territory.
                Don ,the technique of 'reduction ad absurdum' gets used too often, and its a game I don't play.

                Every case- on its own merits.

                I will agree that Ryukan is related to Japanese like- English to High German, perhaps...
                In the early 17th century, the Ryukyuan Kingdom was conquered by the Satsuma-han of Kyūshū. The Satsuma domain kept the kingdom nominally alive because of the benefit from trade with China, although the Amami Archipelago came under the full control of Satsuma. During the Meiji period, the kingdom was formally abolished and Okinawa prefecture was established.
                The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by marktwain View Post
                  Don ,the technique of 'reduction ad absurdum' gets used too often, and its a game I don't play.

                  Every case- on its own merits.

                  I will agree that Ryukan is related to Japanese like- English to High German, perhaps...
                  In the early 17th century, the Ryukyuan Kingdom was conquered by the Satsuma-han of Kyūshū. The Satsuma domain kept the kingdom nominally alive because of the benefit from trade with China, although the Amami Archipelago came under the full control of Satsuma. During the Meiji period, the kingdom was formally abolished and Okinawa prefecture was established.
                  The point I was trying to make was that Japan did not suffer the same level of punishment that Germany had after their defeat. This lack of "punishment" resulted in certain aspects of their society to revised their WWII invasions on a favorable light and deny atrocities. That is the reason why they are not forgiven.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                    This is true. Doesn't change a thing in terms of Chinese participation in Allied strategic planning.



                    I have read Stillwell's memoirs, as well as the US Army's records on Stillwell's mission-the latter is available free on line, BTW.

                    Stillwell was sent to hurt the IJA in what he was fully aware of was a secondary theater, and the aid the UK in safeguarding India. He did not care for 'peanut', as he called the Generalissimo, because the Nationalists were not interested in fighting the IJA as much as stockpiling hardware for war with the communists. While neither he nor Truman saw any good in Mao's forces, the fact was they were willing to fight, and fighting was what was needed in order to keep the bulk of the IJA mired in China where it could not harm Americans.

                    The US Army's history was very clear that Churchill, FDR, and especially Truman did not regard the Nationalists as anything but a minor ally, useful for tying down IJA troops. Truman did not have much if any faith that the nationalists would prevail after the war.



                    Stillwell was trying to curtail aid to the nationalists as early as 1943; he felt that they had no future in China unless peanut got his army free of the corruption and modernized it. He clearly predicted that unless a conflict could be avoided, Mao would win.

                    The nationalists were a wartime expedience. the day Japan surrendered they became irrelevant. Remember, it was FDR who considered China to be critical, politically. Truman had no such opinion.
                    Thanks for your plain straight answer. According to you, Chinese contributions to WWII was insignificant then? Chinese was just being used by the American as convenient ally at the time? American had no genuine interests in China.

                    Also US Army's version was the Stilwell's version, which was based on a book written by Barbra Tuchman who is consider an overrated Pullitzer Writer on Stilwell's experience, Stilwell, an American Experience.

                    I assure you the new books on China Affairs written by Jay Taylor ( a US foreign service officer served in Taiwan), Rana Mitter and Hans Van de Ven, professors at Cambridge and Oxford on Chinese History; and the China Report by General Albert Wedemeyer (Stilwell's replacement, and was called a Pompous Prick by Stilwell. He was also the architech D Day Ally Invasion) have a different light on Nationalists contributions to WWII.
                    Last edited by MSGT MSC USAR; 29 Apr 14, 15:05.
                    Nice is heavy on my mind.
                    I pray and wish the best for France.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by MSGT MSC USAR View Post
                      Thanks for your plain straight answer. According to you, then Chinese contributions to WWII was insignificant then? Chinese was just being used by the American as convenient ally at the time? American had no genuine interests in China.
                      China's contributions were useful. They served to pin down much of the IJA for a relatively small investment by the USA in equipment and personnel.

                      They were a force multiplier.

                      However, once the war ended it stopped being an area of interest.

                      Originally posted by MSGT MSC USAR View Post
                      Also US Army's version was the Stilwell's version, which was based on a book written by Barbra Tuchman who is consider an overrated Pullitzer Writer on Stilwell's experience, Stilwell, an American Experience.
                      Actually, no, they're not. Like I said, its available on line.

                      Originally posted by MSGT MSC USAR View Post
                      I assure the new books on China Affairs written by Jay Taylor ( a US foreign service officer served in Taiwan), Rana Mitter and Hans Van de Ven, professors at Cambridge and Oxford on Chinese History; and the China Report by General Albert Wedemeyer (Stilwell's replacement, and was called a Pompous Prick by Stilwell. He was also the architech D Day Ally Invasion) have a different light on Nationalists contributions to WWII.
                      OK. Different does not automatically mean 'more accurate' or even 'truthful'.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        [QUOTE=
                        OK. Different does not automatically mean 'more accurate' or even 'truthful'.[/QUOTE]

                        You mean truthful because that's the US Government Official Version, then all other critiques are irrevalent? Was US Government truthful about what happened in Benghazi?

                        Read here. This is free.

                        http://www.fredautley.com/

                        THE CHINA STORY -- About how Washington's policies led to communist victories, details and dates, the national best-seller used in Congressional hearings when Gen. MacArthur was recalled during the Korean war. It's data was later also used by Senator Joseph McCarthy and recommended by Gen. MacArthur. The book was a milestone in showing how 3rd World gains by the communists were helped and facilitated in Washington. It inspired hope in many foreign lands that communist takeovers were not indigenous nor "inevitable" as was often claimed in the 1940's.

                        Selected Chapters
                        Chapter 1 Milestones on the Road to Korea

                        Chapter 2 Too Little, Too Late

                        Appendix I and II (Gen. Wedemeyer report)

                        View Book in PDF Format (19mb)
                        View Book in HTML Format (note that photograhs are better in the PDF version)
                        Nice is heavy on my mind.
                        I pray and wish the best for France.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by MSGT MSC USAR View Post
                          You mean truthful because that's the US Government Official Version, then all other critiques are irrevalent? Was US Government truthful about what happened in Benghazi?
                          No, I mean that what I read in those histories ties in with information from other sources. In short, its the truth.

                          Believe what you will. In the end, its not an important topic.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                            Believe what you will. In the end, its not an important topic.
                            Then why are you here? This is a forum about China-Japan-India.
                            Nice is heavy on my mind.
                            I pray and wish the best for France.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by IDonT4 View Post
                              The point I was trying to make was that Japan did not suffer the same level of punishment that Germany had after their defeat. This lack of "punishment" resulted in certain aspects of their society to revised their WWII invasions on a favorable light and deny atrocities. That is the reason why they are not forgiven.
                              Macarthur and SCAPE had pretty good information that a major Communist invasion would take place SOMEWERE from Hokkaido to Malaysia, and they needed to stabilise Japan ASAP. The regional supply hub.

                              Hence -quick deals were cut . The Japanese Socialist party dropped its rather extensive list in return for trade unions , women's suffrage, and land reform. MacArthur prepped up the new Japan in time for -Korea, so the decision was "Bang On.".

                              Tetsu Katayama And Governor MacArthur mapped out the new Japan literally on the run- and both had the rare good sense not to undermine each other.

                              Scape made the right calls .
                              The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by IDonT4 View Post
                                Germany's claim to East Prussia is a hell of a lot stronger than Japan's claim to the Ryukyu's. Yet today Konigsberg is now Kaliningrad while the Ryukyu are still Japanese territory.
                                So what was the option in the early 1950's in Japan , when things 'solidified out'?

                                to their credit, Post war socialist Japan and Victorian Progressive MacArthur worked together like no one could have predicted.

                                Your Tea party could do well to study the history.
                                The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

                                Comment

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