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  • #76
    Originally posted by Paul Edwards View Post
    9/11 changed that. Now individuals are also acknowledged as a threat to the US. So did the possibility of WMD in the hands of terrorists.
    And part of solving the problem with individuals is to implement democracy just so that we can see who we are dealing with.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Paul Edwards View Post
      Yes, I want to see justice for those WTC jumpers. I have devoted most of my life to bring them justice.


      Sure. It should be a general "war on crime" or "war on bad". Let's do this thing properly. And I would suggest we need everyone to be in a religion where it is very clear that if you are bad you will be sent to Hell. None of this nonsense about Jesus dying for your sins so let's get our money's worth. It's not just Islam that is a problem. Of course trying to convert US away from Christianity is impractical at this point in world history. But when I see Christianity dying in Europe and Australia, I have hope that we can convert people to something better for the world. Like Mu'tazilah.
      Well we can all see that good people exist in every country in the world. Therefore can we agree we dont need to force convert folks to any religion?

      And I think we can both agree we want justice for all victims of crime including the victims of the crime that was known as 9/11 committed by AQ.

      We should have a war on bad. I agree with you. Look at all the injustices and crime in our world. Millions of crimes are committed every day. Yet So many beautiful people in every country want a better world. I like the idea of the allies of WW2 which was mostly Christian but included Muslims, Athesits, Jews , Hindus and many more...the idea being that the big powers of the world and today that would be China, Russia and The USA....working together to bring equality to all.

      Consider that good meaning people have named there religion as to why they have faced execution....like Muslims whom fought ISIL, AQ, Taliban, and got captured in battle or kidnapped but died for there beliefs saying Islam stands for freedom.

      I think Christianity is gaining strength. Christians are the largest religion in the world. I dont agree that Christianity is dying in Europe. And I will add that Christianity is gaining in Africa, eventually the Catholic Church will have a African Pope and I feel with that even more liberalism and freedom will be felt worldwide.
      Long live the Lionheart! Please watch this video
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jRDwlR4zbEM
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3DBaY0RsxU
      Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory.

      George S Patton

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
        Well we can all see that good people exist in every country in the world.
        Sure. But those people are generally NOT following the bible which says to stone people to death for working on the Sabbath. They're doing nice things *despite* their horrible religion.

        Therefore can we agree we dont need to force convert folks to any religion?
        Sorry, but no. If you're willing to put up with 9/11 attacks for eternity, I'm not. An Iraqi asked me what I wanted to do about the threat from Muslim extremists - kill them, convert them, or reform them. My answer was "all three at the same time". I took personal lead of the reform movement by reviving and converting to the Mu'tazilah sect of Islam (as that same Iraqi pointed me to), and I would argue to an American that my "interpretation" of Islam is benign and Americans have nothing to fear from me, and that they should *not* do a general genocide of Muslims in response to 9/11.

        Note that the next 9/11 may be a nuclear bomb going off in Los Angeles and you don't even know who did it. You need to uproot every individual in the world who wishes harm to America. Democratizing the world is part of that process, but you also need to reform the education system worldwide.

        We need to have a thorough discussion on this. Note that the problem with Muslim "extremists" is not that that they are Muslim, but that they are religious bigots. It is not only Muslims who are religious bigots though. Part of the war should be against religious bigots worldwide, but it is easier for us to focus on Muslim religious bigots for now. Stopping American Christians from expressing hatred towards atheists is a fight for another day.

        And I think we can both agree we want justice for all victims of crime including the victims of the crime that was known as 9/11 committed by AQ.
        Yes, all victims of crime. The response to 9/11 should be expanded to respond to all crime.

        We should have a war on bad. I agree with you. Look at all the injustices and crime in our world. Millions of crimes are committed every day. Yet So many beautiful people in every country want a better world. I like the idea of the allies of WW2 which was mostly Christian but included Muslims, Athesits, Jews , Hindus and many more...the idea being that the big powers of the world and today that would be China, Russia and The USA....working together to bring equality to all.
        I don't think that quite nails it. Bringing equality to all is the promise of socialism. We need people to have their human rights protected equally, but we don't expect equal financial outcomes.

        Consider that good meaning people have named there religion as to why they have faced execution....like Muslims whom fought ISIL, AQ, Taliban, and got captured in battle or kidnapped but died for there beliefs saying Islam stands for freedom.
        These people are perverting their religion. Islam doesn't stand for freedom. Saddam was a Muslim too. There is nothing in the Koran that told him he would be sent to hell for his crimes. He prayed without fear of his god. It's an ugly equation.

        I think Christianity is gaining strength. Christians are the largest religion in the world. I dont agree that Christianity is dying in Europe. And I will add that Christianity is gaining in Africa, eventually the Catholic Church will have a African Pope and I feel with that even more liberalism and freedom will be felt worldwide.
        We can have freedom with secular humanism, that doesn't come saddled with the truly horrible stuff you can find in the bible. Like stoning your own children to death if they are disobedient.

        Please keep up the conversation. Through debate I can strengthen/understand my own position more clearly. You seem to be a good partner for brainstorming with. I can't bring proper justice to the 9/11 jumpers unless I can win the intellectual debate.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Paul Edwards View Post
          Sure. But those people are generally NOT following the bible which says to stone people to death for working on the Sabbath. They're doing nice things *despite* their horrible religion.


          Sorry, but no. If you're willing to put up with 9/11 attacks for eternity, I'm not. An Iraqi asked me what I wanted to do about the threat from Muslim extremists - kill them, convert them, or reform them. My answer was "all three at the same time". I took personal lead of the reform movement by reviving and converting to the Mu'tazilah sect of Islam (as that same Iraqi pointed me to), and I would argue to an American that my "interpretation" of Islam is benign and Americans have nothing to fear from me, and that they should *not* do a general genocide of Muslims in response to 9/11.

          Note that the next 9/11 may be a nuclear bomb going off in Los Angeles and you don't even know who did it. You need to uproot every individual in the world who wishes harm to America. Democratizing the world is part of that process, but you also need to reform the education system worldwide.

          We need to have a thorough discussion on this. Note that the problem with Muslim "extremists" is not that that they are Muslim, but that they are religious bigots. It is not only Muslims who are religious bigots though. Part of the war should be against religious bigots worldwide, but it is easier for us to focus on Muslim religious bigots for now. Stopping American Christians from expressing hatred towards atheists is a fight for another day.


          Yes, all victims of crime. The response to 9/11 should be expanded to respond to all crime.


          I don't think that quite nails it. Bringing equality to all is the promise of socialism. We need people to have their human rights protected equally, but we don't expect equal financial outcomes.


          These people are perverting their religion. Islam doesn't stand for freedom. Saddam was a Muslim too. There is nothing in the Koran that told him he would be sent to hell for his crimes. He prayed without fear of his god. It's an ugly equation.


          We can have freedom with secular humanism, that doesn't come saddled with the truly horrible stuff you can find in the bible. Like stoning your own children to death if they are disobedient.

          Please keep up the conversation. Through debate I can strengthen/understand my own position more clearly. You seem to be a good partner for brainstorming with. I can't bring proper justice to the 9/11 jumpers unless I can win the intellectual debate.
          Paul the world needs you to stand for justice. I appreciate you.

          The Bible my friend says to forgive. Jesus of course said he who is without sin caste the first stone. Jesus founded the Catholic Church, he is our Lord and Savior according to the Catholic view. Christian history shows us the values of King Arthur, The Sword in the Stone, Richard I, Joan of Arc and so many more provided inspiration to people for good and honorable causes including diversity and tolerance. Catholicism a world renown religion the biggest religion in world history, my religion also proudly so through history has had many leaders and common folk stand for liberal values. Today in the USA, the Catholic Church is the biggest Church in our Country...and in the USA over 30% of Muslims intermarry into different faiths. Across the world in Turkey and Albania, Muslim majority there is interfaith marriage. Atheists and Religious people contribute to the cause of freedom. We can bring justice to the victims of all crimes including the crime of 9/11 by making the world a more just place.
          Long live the Lionheart! Please watch this video
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jRDwlR4zbEM
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3DBaY0RsxU
          Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory.

          George S Patton

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Paul Edwards View Post
            And part of solving the problem with individuals is to implement democracy just so that we can see who we are dealing with.
            Sudan is not a threat for the West, thus the West should not intervene in Sudan .
            Remember Libya : the West intervened for the reasons of Paul Edwards : impose liberal democracy . The result is the advent of ISIS in Libya, the disintegration of the Libyan state and the arrival in Europe of countless illegal immigrants who are nothing else than potential terrorists . They did not come when Gadaffi was ruling ,but as usual, the stupid western liberals knew better .

            If you intervene in Sudan, the Libyan scenario will repeat itself .

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by ljadw View Post
              Sudan is not a threat for the West, thus the West should not intervene in Sudan .
              9/11 changed all that. You may as well say Saudi Arabia and Egypt pose no threat to the West. We do not know how many anti-American Sudanese there are.

              Remember Libya : the West intervened for the reasons of Paul Edwards : impose liberal democracy .
              The West carried out a very lightweight war, just to defeat Gaddafi and to see what happened. It was basically an experiment. Find out just how little we can do militarily and see if we can eventually get a good result. Just the same as we supported the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan first, instead of sending in massive Western ground troops from the start. We need these military experiments to glean knowledge from them.

              The result is the advent of ISIS in Libya, the disintegration of the Libyan state and the arrival in Europe of countless illegal immigrants who are nothing else than potential terrorists . They did not come when Gadaffi was ruling ,but as usual, the stupid western liberals knew better .
              It is true that the Libyan result wasn't as good as expected, but it was still bloody good - overthrowing a dictator with 0 loss of Western troops, the same as Kosovo. There is no need to accept illegal immigrants.

              If you intervene in Sudan, the Libyan scenario will repeat itself .
              A bold prediction. I believe we haven't liberated enough countries to tell for sure what will happen, and that we need another 30 liberations so that we can get an average and standard deviation out of them. Personally I would expect Sudan to look more like Tunisia than Libya.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Paul Edwards View Post
                we need another 30 liberations so that we can get an average and standard deviation out of them.
                Note that in the Philippines in 1989 the US put down a military coup simply by buzzing some Philippines airfields. We have no idea whether we can liberate Venezuela simply by flying some drones over Venezuela and instructing the Venezuelan military it is time to change sides. If we can't do that, then the objective should be to reach that stage in civilization that we can put down military dictatorships or coups with drones. We need people to trust American/western drones as their savior.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Paul Edwards View Post
                  Note that in the Philippines in 1989 the US put down a military coup simply by buzzing some Philippines airfields. We have no idea whether we can liberate Venezuela simply by flying some drones over Venezuela and instructing the Venezuelan military it is time to change sides. If we can't do that, then the objective should be to reach that stage in civilization that we can put down military dictatorships or coups with drones. We need people to trust American/western drones as their savior.
                  We should not intervene in Venezuela ,because
                  a Venezuela is a broken state and no danger for the west
                  b What happens to Venezuela is the fault of the citizens of Venezuela : they voted in Chavez and Madura, thus they have no right to ask to be liberasted and to ask for $ billions if they are liberated . The situation is bad in Venezuela ? I don't care : it is their own fault .There is no need to liberate the inhabitants of Venezuela or of any other country . The more you aid people, the more they hate you . No one want an American saviour .
                  And I see that you are totally unable to understand the reality ,which is that most people outside the US dislike democracy and prefer a dictator : people do not want to rule, they want to be ruled .They will chose a dictator if he promises them material progress and they will support him as long as there is material progress .
                  That's why the Germans voted for Hitler and the population of the SU voted for the communists .

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                    We should not intervene in Venezuela ,because
                    a Venezuela is a broken state and no danger for the west
                    To properly respond to 9/11, we need to kill or convert even anti-American *individuals*. People like the socialists in Venezuela are spreading anti-American hatred. This indoctrination of children needs to end.

                    b What happens to Venezuela is the fault of the citizens of Venezuela : they voted in Chavez and Madura, thus they have no right to ask to be liberasted
                    The Venezuelans are in the same boat as the Iranians. It was previous generations that installed rogue regimes, and the younger generation has no ability to defeat the regime. In both Venezuela and Iran we should forgive the old generation and help the new generation. Iran in particular is very strategic as they are in a great position to show mass conversion away from Islam. They've experienced Islamic rule for decades.

                    and to ask for $ billions if they are liberated .
                    Sure. There was good reason to do nation-building in Afghanistan and Iraq, but there is no need to do nation-building anywhere else. Venezuela, Iran, Libya, Sudan - they all need to build their own nations.

                    The situation is bad in Venezuela ? I don't care : it is their own fault .There is no need to liberate the inhabitants of Venezuela or of any other country . The more you aid people, the more they hate you . No one want an American saviour .
                    It is not true that no-one wants an American savior. Polls showed that about 85% of Afghans supported being liberated.

                    And I see that you are totally unable to understand the reality ,which is that most people outside the US dislike democracy
                    It's not true that most non-Americans dislike democracy.

                    and prefer a dictator :
                    They are free to democratically vote the same guy in every time.

                    people do not want to rule, they want to be ruled .
                    They don't need to vote if they don't want to. They'll be ruled by whatever the other voters choose.

                    They will chose a dictator if he promises them material progress and they will support him as long as there is material progress .
                    This is basically "foreigners can't handle democracy" and the same was said of the Chinese with a "just look at Taiwan!" until Taiwan morphed into a beautiful democracy. It's basically some sort of racism. We need people to become Americophiles, and support democracies like America.

                    That's why the Germans voted for Hitler and the population of the SU voted for the communists .
                    Those are simply signs that the ideological war hadn't been won yet. Our ancestors have done the heavy-lifting to defeat the Nazi and Communist ideologies. We just need to deal with the remnants.

                    Comment


                    • #85

                      A lot of wrong statements proving naivity and ignorance ,thus some answers
                      1 American democracy works only ( and works is a big exaggeration ) in the US: it is not suitable for Europe, Latin America, Africa, Asia : outside the USA no one is saying : give me liberty or give me death .People would find this ridiculous .
                      2 Our ancestors have not defeated Nazi ideology : it was the work from the US, Britain and the SU . And nazism still exists, even in the USA : think on Stormfront, on Hillary Clinton .
                      3 Communism has defeated itself : it collapsed because of the economic crisis . But it still exists : think on the Ivy League .
                      4 Giving aid does not make you loved but hated , because people who ask/receive aid,are considered/consider themselves as losers .
                      You have no idea of the degree of hostility in Western Europe to the USA .
                      And for Muslims the reality is that they consider themselves as Übermenschen who are the masters of the world ; a Sudanese who receives/accept money of the US is considered as a loser.
                      4 About Afghanistan : polls are worthless in this country : the Taliban operate unhindered in the whole of Afghanistan .
                      5 No one likes the USA,because the success of the USA proves the failure of the others .
                      6 USA need no Americophiles, no friends,because there are no friends in international politics .USA need allies, and the best allies are dictators .Franco was a loyal ally, but the present socialist/liberal Spanish government is no trusted ally .

                      East is East, West is West ,and never shall the twain meet .
                      KSA is a trusted ally of US, as long it is ruled by the present rulers . If KSA would become a liberal (thus left wing ) democracy, it would be an enemy of the US .
                      Show me a democracy in Africa,show me a democracy in the ME .

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                        A lot of wrong statements proving naivity and ignorance ,thus some answers
                        No. You are showing that you are an insular American who thinks that all foreigners are the same.

                        1 American democracy works only ( and works is a big exaggeration ) in the US: it is not suitable for Europe, Latin America, Africa, Asia : outside the USA no one is saying : give me liberty or give me death .People would find this ridiculous .
                        I do not find that statement ridiculous, and I am outside the US.

                        2 Our ancestors have not defeated Nazi ideology : it was the work from the US, Britain and the SU . And nazism still exists, even in the USA : think on Stormfront, on Hillary Clinton .
                        The main task of defeating massive numbers of heavily armed Nazis has already been done in WW2. Our generation has a very easy job to counter Nazism.

                        3 Communism has defeated itself : it collapsed because of the economic crisis . But it still exists : think on the Ivy League .
                        It was defeated by the Cold War. If America hadn't engaged in Europe, western Europe might be communist today.

                        4 Giving aid does not make you loved but hated , because people who ask/receive aid,are considered/consider themselves as losers .
                        I don't think all aid recipients think that way. The current president of Afghanistan seems to appreciate it. So does my Afghan friend. So did my Iraqi friends. So did the Libyan blogger I talked to. Have you spoken to anyone in these countries?

                        You have no idea of the degree of hostility in Western Europe to the USA .
                        You have no idea how much good will there is too. And anyhow, this problem needs to be solved. We need to get rid of hostile Europeans. NOT by genocide, but by reforming their education system.

                        And for Muslims the reality is that they consider themselves as Übermenschen who are the masters of the world ;
                        And we need to defeat them too.

                        a Sudanese who receives/accept money of the US is considered as a loser.
                        The Sudanese people do not speak with one voice. It is racist to suggest that they do.

                        4 About Afghanistan : polls are worthless in this country :
                        The poll results are confirmed by voting patterns and also by my Afghan friend.

                        the Taliban operate unhindered in the whole of Afghanistan .
                        They are in no way unhindered. They are being shot in large numbers.

                        5 No one likes the USA,because the success of the USA proves the failure of the others .
                        This is not true. I'm Australian and I like the US. I'm not alone.

                        6 USA need no Americophiles, no friends,because there are no friends in international politics .
                        That's not true. Australia is a friend of America. I am saddened that you don't see that.

                        USA need allies, and the best allies are dictators .Franco was a loyal ally, but the present socialist/liberal Spanish government is no trusted ally .
                        The Spanish government helps in Afghanistan. That's a good start.

                        East is East, West is West ,and never shall the twain meet .
                        This is not true. There is no sharp impenetrable divide like that. There are pro-Americans in every country.

                        KSA is a trusted ally of US, as long it is ruled by the present rulers . If KSA would become a liberal (thus left wing ) democracy, it would be an enemy of the US .
                        Sure. That's why I'm not advocating overthrowing the KSA at this point in world history. We need to work over enemy dictators like Iran first. Long before we turn on allied dictators.

                        Show me a democracy in Africa,show me a democracy in the ME .
                        Tunisia and Iraq. Both fantastic results.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          As it turns out the EU issued a statement in regard to Sudan just last week.

                          The Council today discussed the situation in Sudan and adopted the following statement:
                          https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/p...cil-statement/

                          The EU remains deeply concerned by the deteriorating humanitarian situation in Sudan, and remains committed to help addressing the needs of the population.
                          So everything will soon be all right there now

                          Edit, but this may actually be more consequential though…

                          Several EU member states, including the UK, Italy and Germany, also engaged with Sudan bilaterally on migration issues.[103] the Italian and Sudanese Interior ministries signed a memorandum of understanding, with a direct link to the Khartoum process, focused notably on border management, migrant flows, and repatriations of Sudanese migrants from Italy to Sudan. The UK also began a ‘strategic dialogue’ with Khartoum, notably on migration issues.[104]
                          Sudan’s economic situation is so bad that they can’t refuse EUR 160 million.’[101]
                          https://www.clingendael.org/pub/2018...cies-in-sudan/

                          Last edited by Snowygerry; 25 Jun 19, 03:26.
                          High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.
                          Major Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Co.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Paul Edwards View Post
                            No. You are showing that you are an insular American who thinks that all foreigners are the same.


                            I do not find that statement ridiculous, and I am outside the US.


                            The main task of defeating massive numbers of heavily armed Nazis has already been done in WW2. Our generation has a very easy job to counter Nazism.


                            It was defeated by the Cold War. If America hadn't engaged in Europe, western Europe might be communist today.


                            I don't think all aid recipients think that way. The current president of Afghanistan seems to appreciate it. So does my Afghan friend. So did my Iraqi friends. So did the Libyan blogger I talked to. Have you spoken to anyone in these countries?


                            You have no idea how much good will there is too. And anyhow, this problem needs to be solved. We need to get rid of hostile Europeans. NOT by genocide, but by reforming their education system.


                            And we need to defeat them too.


                            The Sudanese people do not speak with one voice. It is racist to suggest that they do.


                            The poll results are confirmed by voting patterns and also by my Afghan friend.


                            They are in no way unhindered. They are being shot in large numbers.


                            This is not true. I'm Australian and I like the US. I'm not alone.


                            That's not true. Australia is a friend of America. I am saddened that you don't see that.


                            The Spanish government helps in Afghanistan. That's a good start.


                            This is not true. There is no sharp impenetrable divide like that. There are pro-Americans in every country.


                            Sure. That's why I'm not advocating overthrowing the KSA at this point in world history. We need to work over enemy dictators like Iran first. Long before we turn on allied dictators.


                            Tunisia and Iraq. Both fantastic results.
                            Tunesia is not the ME, and it was a dictatorship from 1956 til 2011 . And I have no trust that the present situation will last .
                            There is no democracy in Iraq : the Islam forbids democracy .

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Paul Edwards View Post
                              No. You are showing that you are an insular American who thinks that all foreigners are the same.


                              If America hadn't engaged in Europe, western Europe might be communist today.


                              1 I am Belgian
                              2 This is very questionable .

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Paul Edwards View Post



                                Sure. There was good reason to do nation-building in Afghanistan and Iraq, but there is no need to do nation-building anywhere else. Venezuela, Iran, Libya, Sudan - they all need to build their own nations.


                                It is not true that no-one wants an American savior. Polls showed that about 85% of Afghans supported being liberated.


                                It's not true that most non-Americans dislike democracy.





                                It's basically some sort of racism. We need people to become Americophiles, and support democracies like America.

                                1 Nation-building is always wrong : it is neo-colonialism .
                                2 Those who organise the polls write the answers
                                3 Haha
                                4 Racism is saying : we need people to become Americophiles and support democracies like America .

                                Comment

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