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  • #61
    Originally posted by Paul Edwards View Post
    The West has a good heart. We did a good thing in Syria, just like everywhere else we go.


    No, democracy is the ONLY thing that is NOT forced. It is YOU who wanted Saddam to force his model (Saddam is a genius leader) onto Muslim people.


    Yes, Saddam forcing his views onto the Iraqi people brought blood. We ended his ability to spill any more blood.


    Mohammad forced Islam onto lots of people. Do you condemn Mohammad? Do you condemn him for enslaving women and raping him and then writing in 33:50 that God says it is OK to rape slaves?


    Christianity reformed. I see no technical barrier to reforming Islam. And if it can't be reformed it needs to be eliminated. But not right now. First we need to do what is geostrategic which is to defeat enemy *governments* like Iran.


    No, YOU need to reform.

    You re naive. Democracy is a perfect system to get intrusion to dumb masses through your own spies, media etc. Its a hoax

    You have the bloodiest history, last 100 years aint make you good.

    Saddam was another Baathist, pan arab nationalist/secularist and has more to do with you than us muslims.

    All of sudden you re some kind of muslim who twists Muhammads life into their narrative. ok - seems legit. Intrreeting indeed.

    Christianity didnt reform, it lost to secularism/liberalism. Atheism is riseing in west.
    It wasnt hard, you cant kill your children because they dont obey - as bible calls you to do. Islam doesnt need reform, its bothers you because it doesnt fit you and goes against your goals. Aint gonna happen, you goin through the wall with your head.

    Im for freedom, i know that muslims in democratic societies prosper and people accepting Islam when they re exposed to it properly. We re wining anyway, deal with it
    Last edited by Daud; 21 Jun 19, 07:11.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Daud View Post
      You re naive. Democracy is a perfect system to get intrusion to dumb masses through your own spies, media etc. Its a hoax
      The fact that you think democracy is a hoax is part of the ideological war. I hope your children will have a different opinion to you so that it is not necessary to meet over the barrel of a gun. It will take decades to determine.

      You have the bloodiest history, last 100 years aint make you good.
      The US has acted near-perfectly since Pearl Harbor. The only exceptions were abandoning our South Vietnamese allies and recognizing Kosovo.

      Saddam was another Baathist, pan arab nationalist/secularist and has more to do with you than us muslims.
      He was a Muslim that used to murder and rape other Muslims, and there was nothing in the Koran that told him that that was wrong and he would be sent to Hell for doing it.

      All of sudden you re some kind of muslim who twists Muhammads life into their narrative. ok - seems legit. Intrreeting indeed.
      Yes, if you want a job done properly you need to do it yourself.

      Christianity didnt reform, it lost to secularism/liberalism.
      Christianity has reformed. They no longer burn heathens at the stake.

      Atheism is riseing in west.
      It wasnt hard, you cant kill your children because they dont obey - as bible calls you to do.
      Yes, the bible is another dogma, just like the Koran or Marx's writings. As I said before, I am rational, specifically anti-dogma.

      Islam doesnt need reform, its bothers you because it doesnt fit you and goes against your goals. Aint gonna happen, you goin through the wall with your head.
      Islam does need reform, and we shall see whether your children remain Muslim.

      Im for freedom, i know that muslims in democratic societies prosper
      If Muslims prosper in democratic societies then why are you opposed to democracy? And what is your definition of "freedom"? For me, "freedom" means "living under a rational, humanist, non-subjugating government".

      and people accepting Islam when they re exposed to it properly. We re wining anyway, deal with it
      No, we're winning by getting Muslim countries to implement some level of freedom of speech, and subscribing to the internet so that we can slowly start chipping away at your indoctrination. I don't blame you for being indoctrinated. I consider that you are a victim of child abuse by being indoctrinated with a non-humanist ideology as a child. It is a shame that you will do the same thing to your own children instead of waiting for them to turn 18 before selling Islam to them.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Daud View Post
        There is a big political fight about ANP of Bosnia and their membership in Nato. Serbs blocking it.
        Lock former enemies in Alliance - classic Belgian war trick.

        One EU to rule them all, UN to find them, NATO bring them all, and in darkness bind them


        Lambert of Montaigu - Crusader.

        Bolgios - Mercenary Game.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Daud View Post
          All of sudden you re some kind of muslim who twists Muhammads life into their narrative. ok - seems legit. Intrreeting indeed.
          BTW, when I see America liberating Afghanistan and Iraq, I don't believe the Americans are following Jesus's pacifism which I consider to be a bankrupt ideology. I treat American Christians as honorary Mu'tazilites.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Paul Edwards View Post
            It's more as an intellectual exercise. What is the natural/response to 9/11? Some people wanted to turn Afghanistan into a glass desert. THAT would be genocide/terrorism in itself. I on the other hand wanted to see Afghanistan LIBERATED. I am the one who is AGAINST genocide. I am in favor of democracy and giving people the opportunity to reform via the democratic process and aided by freedom of speech. Note that if Iran is allowed to develop nukes and nuked Los Angeles there is NO SENSIBLE response to that. Nuking Tehran in response would just be killing a whole lot of our ALLIES. Most of the people in Iran are against their dictator, and need to be FREED not NUKED. Nuking Tehran is basically genocide and I am AGAINST doing that!

            Moderator - I hope this clarifies my use of the word "genocide". It is just "who we need to kill in response to 9/11". If you think that the only person who needed to be killed in response to 9/11 is Osama Bin Laden personally, then the "genocide" would be limited to one person, so it's not really a genocide. If you think those who harbored or supported OBL, ie the Taliban and Al Qaeda need to be killed, then I'm not sure if that is classified as genocide.


            Note that I am not even saying that Muslims should be converted to Christianity. I actually went the other way myself, and converted from atheism to Islam. Although these days I'm a Muslim in name only (I no longer attend my local mosque to pray). Why? If there's going to be a genocide against Muslims, I want to argue that it is possible for Muslims to be no threat whatsoever to America. I am an Americophile Muslim. But if America still feels the need to forcibly convert Muslims to Christianity or any other religion, I am happy to convert. If America doesn't give me a chance to convert, and decides to kill all Muslims, well, that's my bad luck. Moderator please note that I am against genocide of Muslims because I'm one of them!


            Hindus didn't do 9/11 and it appears to be a benign religion. I don't think America is suggesting that Hindus are a threat. I've never heard any calls from Americans to bomb Hindus. However, if America chooses to bomb/genocide Hindus because they are perceived to be a security threat, then the lesser evil would be to forcibly convert them to whatever religion (or sect of Christianity) America considers to be benign. Moderator please note - I am AGAINST the genocide of Hindus!
            My friend Im not sure if your being sarcastic itt. I feel you are using some heavy language. But ill take you for your word. Perhaps you are a colorful character in real life, I get that.

            It seems a big topic for you is 9/11. That was an attack committed by AQ. All sorts of individuals and groups though have caused chaos in our world with violence and intolerance. Thousands of crimes are committed every day in our country alone. Could you imagine the # of crimes then committed every day in our world? A victim of AQ, a victim of the mafia, or a victim of the various criminal groups or individuals of the world all bleed the same blood. Thats the grand issue. No religion can ever be blamed for the ill humans have put on society. Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Jews, Atheists you got good and bad in every group.
            Long live the Lionheart! Please watch this video
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jRDwlR4zbEM
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3DBaY0RsxU
            Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory.

            George S Patton

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            • #66
              I think the Sudanese people are so wonderful and nice, well educated, brilliant, they should show the rest of the world and pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Show everyone how great and wonderful they are that they need no charity but have plenty to give.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Paul Edwards View Post
                Absolutely. This is why we have a war. A clash of ideologies. And it goes beyond just government to government conflict. Thanks to OBL, we now need to fight every single individual, including yourself, with an opposing ideology. Not necessarily with weapons, but with debate like we are having now.


                The Iraqis were never directly guilty for 9/11. They were just meant to be the smartest Arabs on the planet (written in Egypt, published in Lebanon, read in Iraq), so that was the best chance we had of standing up an Arab democracy. There were a LOT of people, including Arabs, who said it was impossible for the Arabs to have democracy. The same thing used to be said of the ethnic Chinese prior to Taiwan becoming a beautiful democracy. Anyway, whatever number of Iraqis died so that their country could be FREE is a blood price to be paid by patriots. If Australia was under a cruel dictator that was able to abduct and rape my daughter, I would be willing to sacrifice 90% of my country to have the dictator overthrown. At the Alamo they sacrificed 100%. The Russians sacrificed 20 million people in WW2 and didn't even get freedom at the end of it. The Iraqis ended up sacrificing 1% of their population, and almost all of that was due to Muslims killing Muslims, not anything the coalition did.


                What gave Saddam the right to force his ideology onto the Iraqi people? I am forcing the *Iraqi people's* (not mine) ideology onto the *government*, via democracy. The *people* are free to vote for whoever they want. Although if they vote for jihad on the West we will THEN need to force a non-jihad ideology on the people. Due to the right of self-defense. But that fortunately never happened. Not even a bus timetable was forced onto the Iraqi people, and I am happy with that for now. They have opened up freedom of speech so now I (and others) can negotiate with the Iraqi people for long-term peace.
                Sigh,sigh, sigh : you are the mirror of the liberal elite in Washington, those who can't imagine that people would have another ideology than theirs . The Democrat ambassador of Carter in Iran was convinced that Khomeini was a new Ghandi .And Carter swallowed this nonsense, because for him the Shah was George III and Khomeini Washington . How stupid can one be .
                And Obama was even more stupid than Carter ( if this is possible ) : he was convinced that the chief of ISIS was a revolutionary who wanted to liberate his people .
                There is no need for us to meddle in their business : democracy has no place in the ME. It NEVER will be viable in the ME, because the Islam an democracy are excluding each other .
                The best thing to do is to buy their oil,so that with this money they can buy our weapons and kill each other,meanwhile they will not annoy us .

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Paul Edwards View Post
                  Ok, that comment may be fair. In every country in the world there are individuals who are ideological allies, ie the sort of people who behave the same as the Danish PM. Or behave the same as myself. I would like those Sudanese - my ideological allies, to form the Sudanese government. It doesn't require Danes etc to be permanently stationed in Sudan. It only requires Sudanese of the right persuasion to be in charge, and also for them to ensure that they stay in charge. E.g. by genociding the portion of their population that supports FGM and would otherwise democratically vote to make FGM legal. I don't need the genocide to be carried out immediately, and education may be an effective alternative to genocide, so that's the moral thing to do (if possible). That is the end state I want. I am not the first person to use the term "democratic imperialism", but it is something similar to that. I'm not sure "colonization" is the right term to describe this, as it is purely a matter of bringing the right Sudanese into government, not requiring foreigners to run Sudan. And to me, this is what "liberation" looks like. My Sudanese ideological allies will be liberated if they can have their ideology in power, while still allowing freedom of speech to challenge everything, and the ability to vote on the left/right split of how high taxes and government-run services should be.
                  We don't need ideological allies, because an ideological ally is only a fata morgana . Where was Western Europe when US was fighting in Vietnam ?

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
                    It seems a big topic for you is 9/11.
                    Yes, I want to see justice for those WTC jumpers. I have devoted most of my life to bring them justice.

                    That was an attack committed by AQ. All sorts of individuals and groups though have caused chaos in our world with violence and intolerance. Thousands of crimes are committed every day in our country alone. Could you imagine the # of crimes then committed every day in our world? A victim of AQ, a victim of the mafia, or a victim of the various criminal groups or individuals of the world all bleed the same blood. Thats the grand issue. No religion can ever be blamed for the ill humans have put on society. Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Jews, Atheists you got good and bad in every group.
                    Sure. It should be a general "war on crime" or "war on bad". Let's do this thing properly. And I would suggest we need everyone to be in a religion where it is very clear that if you are bad you will be sent to Hell. None of this nonsense about Jesus dying for your sins so let's get our money's worth. It's not just Islam that is a problem. Of course trying to convert US away from Christianity is impractical at this point in world history. But when I see Christianity dying in Europe and Australia, I have hope that we can convert people to something better for the world. Like Mu'tazilah.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                      Where was Western Europe when US was fighting in Vietnam ?
                      Part of the War on Terror should be to get Western Europeans to hang their heads in shame for eternity for not helping their American allies, who have helped them so much, to defeat the communists in Vietnam. We need a general war on bad ideology. It's not just Islam. It's not just Al Qaeda.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Paul Edwards View Post
                        Part of the War on Terror should be to get Western Europeans to hang their heads in shame for eternity for not helping their American allies, who have helped them so much, to defeat the communists in Vietnam. We need a general war on bad ideology. It's not just Islam. It's not just Al Qaeda.
                        Ideological wars are stupid wars .
                        There are no bad ideologies, only dangerous ideologies .
                        Intelligent people do not fight because someone disagrees with them, but because someone is a danger for them .

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Paul Edwards View Post
                          Yes, I want to see justice for those WTC jumpers. I have devoted most of my life to bring them justice.


                          Sure. It should be a general "war on crime" or "war on bad". Let's do this thing properly. And I would suggest we need everyone to be in a religion where it is very clear that if you are bad you will be sent to Hell. None of this nonsense about Jesus dying for your sins so let's get our money's worth. It's not just Islam that is a problem. Of course trying to convert US away from Christianity is impractical at this point in world history. But when I see Christianity dying in Europe and Australia, I have hope that we can convert people to something better for the world. Like Mu'tazilah.
                          Only fools want to change the world, to make a better world .
                          Last edited by ljadw; 23 Jun 19, 14:50.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                            Ideological wars are stupid wars .
                            9/11 is basically a stupid war. The West was busy fighting a sensible geostrategic war of trying to secure Europe by getting the Baltics et al into NATO, and out of the blue a non-state actor decides to start a religious war in the 21st century. WTF?

                            Regardless, we don't have the luxury of only having sensible wars. Osama has forced us to fight a religious war, or more broadly an ideological war.

                            There are no bad ideologies, only dangerous ideologies .
                            Intelligent people do not fight because someone disagrees with them, but because someone is a danger for them .
                            All opposing ideologies are an inherent danger because at any point your opponent may decide to attack you because of the difference, regardless of whether you think that is sensible or not. Note that when Hitler came up with his alternate ideology we could have easily gone to war to defeat him, but instead we allowed him to grow stronger. We need to be very clear on what our ideological differences are and how to manage them. People have been attacked for wearing a "Make America Great Again" hat, showing that even the Democrat/Republican split is a threat.

                            Only fools want to change the world, to make a better world .
                            Wow. You didn't want to change the world to get rid of the communist ideology? Or the Nazi one?

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Paul Edwards View Post
                              9/11 is basically a stupid war. The West was busy fighting a sensible geostrategic war of trying to secure Europe by getting the Baltics et al into NATO, and out of the blue a non-state actor decides to start a religious war in the 21st century. WTF?

                              Regardless, we don't have the luxury of only having sensible wars. Osama has forced us to fight a religious war, or more broadly an ideological war.


                              All opposing ideologies are an inherent danger because at any point your opponent may decide to attack you because of the difference, regardless of whether you think that is sensible or not. Note that when Hitler came up with his alternate ideology we could have easily gone to war to defeat him, but instead we allowed him to grow stronger. We need to be very clear on what our ideological differences are and how to manage them. People have been attacked for wearing a "Make America Great Again" hat, showing that even the Democrat/Republican split is a threat.


                              Wow. You didn't want to change the world to get rid of the communist ideology? Or the Nazi one?
                              The world never will be better . How many people have been killed since 1945, how many since 1989?
                              As long as Hitler was not threatening us, there was no reason to attack him .
                              US is not safer if there are more democracies or less dictators . There were almost no democracies in 1789,and still US was not in danger .
                              The only way to get rid of the SU was a nuclear war , and no one wanted a nuclear war .
                              The world has not changed in 1945 or in 1989 .
                              Since 1945, the allies of the US were mostly dictators: in Asia, Africa, the ME South America .
                              The so-called Free World was only propaganda . Mobutu was not a democrat, neither is Sissi, Assad, the leaders of KSA, Franco,......
                              Only dictators who are hostile to the US ,are a danger for the US , and most of them are not hostile to the US .
                              There is no reason to intervene everywhere,intervening everywhere makes things only worse .The leaders of Sudan are not a danger for the US, thus US should not intervene in Sudan . There is no reason to wast the money of the Deplorables to give liberty to the Sudanese . No one cares about them .
                              The attacks on Republicans in the US , on Jews ,on those who are sceptic about climate change prove only one thing : that there is a lot of work to do in the US and that this has priority .

                              It is the same in Western Europe where the situation is even worse, much worse .
                              America First means : America only and the rest of the world is not the business of the US: Trump is not the president of Sudan .
                              People who want to change the world make the world worse .

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                                Only dictators who are hostile to the US ,are a danger for the US , and most of them are not hostile to the US .
                                9/11 changed that. Now individuals are also acknowledged as a threat to the US. So did the possibility of WMD in the hands of terrorists.

                                The attacks on Republicans in the US , on Jews ,on those who are sceptic about climate change prove only one thing : that there is a lot of work to do in the US and that this has priority .
                                It shows that we need a total ideological war. It shouldn't just be limited to violent Democrats in the US.

                                People who want to change the world make the world worse .
                                If you believe that, then you should be promoting an ideological war against people who want to change the world, but that in itself would be attempting to change the world.

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