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Polish Campaign 1939

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  • #61
    Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
    I was just trying to help, because you and skoblin seem to be in disagreement here. If there was a disclaimer statement regarding the propaganda in these films, would that be satisfactory to you?

    If so, we can then ask skoblin if he thinks it is OK to do this. It is better to try to reach an agreement, if we can.
    Sure, and thanks for it. If Skoblin want I'll shake his hand. But my point is actual. I will never tolerate sharing nazi-soviet propaganda without historical reflexion.
    - Your Highness, the enemy is so numerous... they outnumber your army.
    - My friend, first I beat 'em then I'll count 'em
    (Polish King Jan III Sobieski during his campaigns)

    Historia Wojskowa Portal Historyczno-Wojskowy phw.org.pl

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Barbaross@ View Post
      "You can be objective when it do not offense You. German or Soviet propaganda was a lie to the ground, offensive, racial and totalitarian supporting, where You want to use you objectivenes here?"
      To study history properly, it is important to try to be as objective and unbiased as possible. Of course, in all nationalities there is some bias but the important thing is to make a genuine effort to be objective. But being objective does not mean we accept or condone the evils of rotten regimes like the Nazis.
      "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Barbaross@ View Post
        Well, I'm not naive. Of course we posters know what it was. But again just imagin that most of the readers are anonymous guests. Today if a kid want to find something in an internet he do not realy care about deep sence of it,.. he just clic and get.
        Skoblin sharing such poisoned materials should be extremly sensitive on this case, and put even short comment.
        Now poor kid see brave SSmans in their cool uniforms having fun invading Poland and help poor volksduches sufering under Polish ocupation.
        Why I put it, just in case like that, we had some time ago - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_...mp_controversy
        I know that for guys from America or Antipodes it was just another war (you have distant perspective), but in Europe it is still very very sensitive case.
        Such materials like Skoblin shares only support revisionist point of view.
        You know, Barbarossa, I did in fact place a disclaimer on my Youtube site:

        This site is intended to provide a newsreel documentary history of the Second World War in the eyes of the German, Italian, British, American, Hungarian, Soviet and other cameramen who filmed it. It is politically neutral and only intended for the purpose of education. Constructive comments are welcomed from all viewers regardless of political persuasion.
        I did so for a number of reasons, the most important being that a number of channels on Youtube have become sounding boards for anti-Semitic or pro-Nazi groups and individuals. In addition, unlike most of the other channels on Youtube which have newsreels from the second world war posted on them, I have made it a point to post - to the best of my ability - newsreels and propaganda documents from as many countries as possible. I also regularly go through the comments sections on certain newsreels I have posted for the purpose of removing pro-Nazi statements.

        The difference here is that I presumed that the level of discourse and historical understanding on Armchair General was of a standard exceeding that of the Youtube community. I assumed that people here would be able to discern better between truth and propaganda. This was obviously an error in my part - or rather - this is a position you have taken: that members of a historical forum can't tell the difference.

        I brought this up before whether it is your position that I should point out the falsehoods in each every newsreel. If so, the task would be both extremely time consuming and - ultimately - impossible. Take the newsreel on German rule in Poland for instance. The narrator claims that the synagogue was the only building untouched by arsonists in one village. Is this true? How do I know. I do not know what village it was. No film is shown of other building other than a few houses, which - despite the narration - did not seem to be reduced to rubble. Do I need to remark that the comment about the Jews depicted in the newsreel "being put to work for the first time in their lives" was anti-Semitic propaganda? Is it not obvious? The newsreel on survivors of the sinking of the HMS Courageous, which I recently posted, has one survivor claiming the German submarine had been sunk by depth charges. Is this true or false? False. The German submarine U-29 escaped. Simply, all of these newsreels are propaganda materials, which means that they are inherently articles of misinformation. But I thought that was understood by most historically aware individuals.

        I actually have a number of Deutsche Wochenschau that had been re-edited by the Communist East German government, in which they added additional narration disclosing falsehoods in the original Nazi documentation. In the process, they eliminated some of the original German text of the newsreel. This is true revisionism: when original historical documentation is altered or presented with an ongoing "historically-correct" narrative. As a historian and as a supplier of original documentation for other historians, I do not and will not do this. Instead, I have left these threads open for others to post responses as they see fit, whether textual or visual.

        As for your claims that I am "anti-Polish", I went out of my way to post a Polish newsreel of the Polish army in 1939 for you on this very thread, even though I was going to post this newsreel in a pre-war thread instead. Unfortunately, for a variety of reasons, I have been unable to procure my own Polish newsreels of the Polish campaign, although I have tried with no success. Failure in this regard to present the Polish campaign through Polish propaganda newsreels should not automatically make me "anti-Polish". If this is going to be the grounds for determining one's position, then I will also eventually have to be called "anti-Japanese" and "anti-Rumanian" since I have been unable to find Rumanian or Japanese newsreels as well.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Barbaross@ View Post
          Sure, and thanks for it. If Skoblin want I'll shake his hand. But my point is actual. I will never tolerate sharing nazi-soviet propaganda without historical reflexion.
          Then where was your protest when Skoblin posted Italian, Vichy French, and Hungarian footage? Could be that you have a blind spot when it comes to Poland? I know I would have to take a step back if I saw anti-US footage in these videos. But I hope I would remember the context in the way that they are posted and not take offence. It would probably be a hard thing to do.

          Barbarossa, I think you're way off base here. Skoblin is just presenting these videos as they shown back in WW2. No commentary, no endorsement, no bias. Just the footage in its original form. Which I believe is a form of history in and of itself. If we don't see these things in their original form, how can we understand how the various populations reacted to these films at the time they were shown? How do we find out what motivated the soldiers if we don't see what they were seeing, as presented by the various governments and their propoganda ministries?

          Please try to take a step back and see these things for what they are, a product of their time.
          Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

          Comment


          • #65
            Then where was your protest when Skoblin posted Italian, Vichy French, and Hungarian footage? Could be that you have a blind spot when it comes to Poland?
            Yes it is. Don't you see white-red flag on my profile? Materials are offensive toward Poles, so I protest agains them. It is courious for You?
            Please try to take a step back and see these things for what they are, a product of their time.
            In Europe there is a law ban on publications like this. "Mein Kempf" historians must use only from archival editions because no one print this today.
            If you think it is censorship, You're right, but just imagine, that no one protest against it here.
            In other hand, I remember protests when year or two ago, some firm had try to reprint this.

            For You, not realy hurt in this war it seems to be silly, but not for us. Try to understant this and accept our sensitive, because in such point there will be no compromise.

            But again, If You want to be completely sure what I mean, just ask Skoblin for "Eternal Jew" (it was "a product of their time" as well). Jewish people better than me explain you what I have in mind.
            - Your Highness, the enemy is so numerous... they outnumber your army.
            - My friend, first I beat 'em then I'll count 'em
            (Polish King Jan III Sobieski during his campaigns)

            Historia Wojskowa Portal Historyczno-Wojskowy phw.org.pl

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Barbaross@ View Post
              Yes it is. Don't you see white-red flag on my profile? Materials are offensive toward Poles, so I protest agains them. It is courious for You?

              In Europe there is a law ban on publications like this. "Mein Kempf" historians must use only from archival editions because no one print this today.
              If you think it is censorship, You're right, but just imagine, that no one protest against it here.
              In other hand, I remember protests when year or two ago, some firm had try to reprint this.

              For You, not realy hurt in this war it seems to be silly, but not for us. Try to understant this and accept our sensitive, because in such point there will be no compromise.

              But again, If You want to be completely sure what I mean, just ask Skoblin for "Eternal Jew" (it was "a product of their time" as well). Jewish people better than me explain you what I have in mind.
              Regarding "The Eternal Jew", the Danish academic Stig Hornshøj-Møller delivered a paper to Holocaust seminars in the United States and Sweden addressing the current ban of this film in Europe.
              http://www.holocaust-history.org/der...19980427.shtml

              Should we, who favor a democratic society, really still be so scared of an almost sixty-year-old hate-picture, that we pretend that it does not exist - and thus in practice leave it to those whose racism it confirms and strengthens? Should we not instead dare to use the film actively, as part of Holocaust education, and dare to demonstrate the authentic poison in it in order to vaccinate future generations?
              He presents a summary of his own views of this document and its relevance for today:

              From a purely historical perspective, "The Eternal Jew" is undoubtedly a very important means for the understanding of both Nazism and the Holocaust. No other single historical source gives so much information and insight about Nazi ideology and world view as this film. From my own experience of more than twenty years of teaching I can certify that students on both the high-school and university level can pick up all major aspects of the mentality of the Third Reich, without difficulty, through the analysis of this film.
              In several seminars in both Denmark and Germany, I have also been able to witness how this film succeeded in making the apparently distant Nazi ideology a relevant question to even young people of today. During a bit more than one hour they are taken back more than fifty years, and get a personal experience of what it could have been like to have lived in the Third Reich - or how it could have been to have been its unhappy neighbours and scapegoats.
              As a result, Hornshøj-Møller conducted a social-science experiment:

              Between 1973 and 1975, we tested "the Eternal Jew" on 1200 Danish high-school students between 16 and 19 years old, giving them a questionnaire with 25 questions. We had built in a couple of "traps" in order to reveal the sincerity of the answers, which were given anonymously. The result was both evident and encouraging.
              ...
              This investigation showed beyond any reasonable doubt that our fear and the fear of other experts of unintentionally creating an antisemitic sentiment among Danish high-school students was without foundation. If the film did alter somebody's opinion of Jews, it was definitely not along the direction which Goebbels had intended.
              The film had instead a quite different effect: The experience of seventy minutes of Nazi hate propaganda suddenly opened the students' eyes to the mental processes inside the ordinary German in the Third Reich.
              ...
              It should, however, be mentioned, that during the last two years I have taken up the project again and have carried out similar surveys in Denmark and Germany during presentations in high-schools and on universities. The results in both countries are almost identical with the results from the mid-seventies.
              Hornshøj-Møller's conclusion:
              A study of this film and comparison with its later successors of inhumanity can - in the light of its consequences - help us to disclose the psychological patterns behind genocidal mentality, which should be the fundamental aim for all teaching about the Holocaust.

              Comment


              • #67
                So if there is no problem or even it have a "good educational efect", just put it on your blog without any comment.
                - Your Highness, the enemy is so numerous... they outnumber your army.
                - My friend, first I beat 'em then I'll count 'em
                (Polish King Jan III Sobieski during his campaigns)

                Historia Wojskowa Portal Historyczno-Wojskowy phw.org.pl

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Barbaross@ View Post
                  So if there is no problem or even it have a "good educational efect", just put it on your blog without any comment.
                  You were always free to add your own comments. That is what this thread was for.

                  By the way, I can't help but notice that this thread was started by Przemyslaw and that his first post was an excerpt from Deutsche Wochenschau on the invasion of Poland - followed later by a post of German propaganda posters. None of these had any additional commentary made by Przemyslaw. None of these posts elicited any comment or criticism on your part. But since you continue to complain about the content of this thread, and because I find it boring having to listen to your constant litany of complaints, I hereby close this thread and will close any other thread involving film footage of the invasion of Poland.

                  Comment

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