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  • Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    A new thread to cover the conflict in Palestine and the Arab-Israeli wars....

    Starting off on a peaceful note.....Christmas, 1930. Movietone News





    Last edited by Skoblin; 06 Jan 09, 00:53.


  • #2
    Excellent Initiative!

    This will lead to a better understanding of the ongoing conflict in the Near East. Sykes/Picot, Lord Balfour, various personalities of the Yeshuv, and the Hashemites, et caetera et caetera.

    The Holy Land Christmas 1930--amazing. The woman answering "La" means no in Arabic, as "lo" is also no in Hebrew; very similar.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by olivenstein View Post
      This will lead to a better understanding of the ongoing conflict in the Near East. Sykes/Picot, Lord Balfour, various personalities of the Yeshuv, and the Hashemites, et caetera et caetera.

      The Holy Land Christmas 1930--amazing. The woman answering "La" means no in Arabic, as "lo" is also no in Hebrew; very similar.
      Can anyone really understand this conflict?

      Good find all the same Skoblin!
      History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon. Napoleon Bonaparte
      _________
      BoRG
      __________
      "I am Arthur, King of the Britons!"

      Comment


      • #4
        British Pathe News[reel]

        Lehi men and women arrested:
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPjhf71MGOc

        mariata35 has quite a few documents regarding pre-'48. Not all is the best quality; but interesting nonetheless.

        Also some are in Hebrew and untranslated. Are there any ACG Israelis or Hebrew-speakers who could translate to English the report on the Lord Moyne '44 Assassination, for instance, as I only know a smattering of Hebrew, and even less Arabic.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by olivenstein View Post
          Lehi men and women arrested:
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPjhf71MGOc

          mariata35 has quite a few documents regarding pre-'48. Not all is the best quality; but interesting nonetheless.

          Also some are in Hebrew and untranslated. Are there any ACG Israelis or Hebrew-speakers who could translate to English the report on the Lord Moyne '44 Assassination, for instance, as I only know a smattering of Hebrew, and even less Arabic.
          Good addition, Laurent...I'll be adding some about the Arab Revolt in the late 1930s in a bit. Incidentally, I was just remarking about the Stern (Lehi) Gang in the Gaza forum here.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Torien View Post
            Can anyone really understand this conflict?

            Good find all the same Skoblin!
            You're right, Torien. I am only beginning to understand this conflict. I have read much on this conflict, have lived with an Israeli woman, and have spoken (or to put it better, been given speeches by) quite a few Arabs when I was living in Europe in the '90s.

            Yet there are perspectives I have only partly read into (in no order): the Bible for one! the Crusades, inner-Arab divisions, Arab Legion, Bonaparte's march from Egypt into Palestine and his promises to both Arabs and Jews (starting a French diplomatic tradition for the Near East!). Napolean III's conflict with the Tsar over the Holy Land, Armenian vs Greek and/or Russian Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant, the splits between revisionist and labour, ashkenaz and sepharade (plus sepharade marokai and sepharade ottomite/classique), the Cold War, the Diaspora key participants in the New Left divided between Marxist and Zionism after the Six-Day War and the myriad events of 1968, the alphabet soup of PLO, PLFP, PA, the list goes on...very 'byzantine' to say the least.

            One good source on a British perspective (Palestine is the third box down): http://www.britains-smallwars.com/main/index1.html

            and Anton La Guardia's book War Without End (he is currently with The Economist, I believe, formally Daily Telegraph, titled Holy Land, Unholy War in the UK) is one of the clearest and most accessible that jumps to mind.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by olivenstein View Post
              You're right, Torien. I am only beginning to understand this conflict. I have read much on this conflict, have lived with an Israeli woman, and have spoken (or to put it better, been given speeches by) quite a few Arabs when I was living in Europe in the '90s.

              Yet there are perspectives I have only partly read into (in no order): the Bible for one! the Crusades, inner-Arab divisions, Arab Legion, Bonaparte's march from Egypt into Palestine and his promises to both Arabs and Jews (starting a French diplomatic tradition for the Near East!). Napolean III's conflict with the Tsar over the Holy Land, Armenian vs Greek and/or Russian Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant, the splits between revisionist and labour, ashkenaz and sepharade (plus sepharade marokai and sepharade ottomite/classique), the Cold War, the Diaspora key participants in the New Left divided between Marxist and Zionism after the Six-Day War and the myriad events of 1968, the alphabet soup of PLO, PLFP, PA, the list goes on...very 'byzantine' to say the least.

              One good source on a British perspective (Palestine is the third box down): http://www.britains-smallwars.com/main/index1.html

              and Anton La Guardia's book War Without End (he is currently with The Economist, I believe, formally Daily Telegraph, titled Holy Land, Unholy War in the UK) is one of the clearest and most accessible that jumps to mind.
              You're a walking encyclopedia, Laurent. Why aren't you in academia? Quel dommage! Oh, well....academia's loss is la bearnaise's gain.

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks , Skoblin ! (it's hard to type as you had me laughing there with the bearnaise comment)

                Oh, actually I'm just too curious for my own good !

                Come to think of it , to avoid being paedantic, I'm thinking it's a better idea to give small dashes of information. Hors d'oeuvres as it were--instead of spoiling people's appetites.

                I daresay I'm sometimes guilty of the tendency to blow ones own horn which is the bain of most forums; instead of always making the proper revelent comment. Or better yet contributing a constructive question.

                In any case, enjoy your week man.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by olivenstein View Post
                  Come to think of it , to avoid being paedantic, I'm thinking it's a better idea to give small dashes of information. Hors d'oeuvres as it were--instead of spoiling people's appetites.
                  That's the subtle Latin blood in you, Laurent. Myself, I have too much of the German in me......no hors d'oeuvres, just big slabs of pork and potatoes, whether anybody wants it or not.......
                  Last edited by Skoblin; 06 Jan 09, 01:07.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    1949. Theodore Herzl returns to Israel

                    Theodor Herzl (Hebrew: בנימין זאב הרצל‎ (Binyamin Ze'ev Herzl)) (May 2, 1860July 3, 1904) was a Hungarian Jewish journalist who was the father of modern political Zionism. Herzl was born in Pest, the Kingdom of Hungary (today the eastern half of Budapest, then a separate city). When Theodor was 18 his family moved to Vienna, Austria-Hungary. There, he studied law, but he devoted himself almost exclusively to journalism and literature. As a young man, Herzl was engaged in a Burschenschaft association, which strove for German unity under the motto Ehre, Freiheit, Vaterland ("Honor, Freedom, Fatherland"), and his early work did not focus on Jewish life.As the Paris correspondent for Neue Freie Presse, Herzl followed the Dreyfus Affair, a notorious anti-Semitic incident in France in which a French Jewish army captain was falsely convicted of spying for Germany. He witnessed mass rallies in Paris following the Dreyfus trial where many chanted "Death to the Jews!" Herzl came to reject his early ideas regarding Jewish emancipation and assimilation, and to believe that the Jews must remove themselves from Europe and create their own state. From April, 1896, when the English translation of his Der Judenstaat (The State of the Jews) appeared, Herzl became the leading spokesman for Zionism.Herzl complemented his writing with practical work to promote Zionism on the international stage.His supporters, at first few in number, worked night and day, inspired by Herzl's example.In 1897, at considerable personal expense, he founded Die Welt of Vienna, Austria-Hungary and planned the First Zionist Congress in Basel, Switzerland. He was elected president (a position he held until his death in 1904), and in 1898 he began a series of diplomatic initiatives intended to build support for a Jewish country. In August 1903 he received an offer on the part of the British government to facilitate a large Jewish settlement, with autonomous government and under British suzerainty, in British East Africa, known as the 'Uganda Project.' Herzl did not live to see the rejection of the Uganda plan; he died in Edlach, Lower Austria in 1904 of heart failure at age 44. His will stipulated that he should have the poorest-class funeral without speeches or flowers and he added, "I wish to be buried in the vault beside my father, and to lie there till the Jewish people shall take my remains to Palestine". In 1949 his remains were moved from Vienna to be reburied on Mount Herzl in Jerusalem.

                    Herzl envisioned a Jewish state which combined both a modern Jewish culture with the best of the European heritage.He did not envision the Jewish inhabitants of the state being religious, but there is much respect for religion in the public sphere.Herzl did not foresee any conflict between Jews and Arabs. The one Arab character in Herzl's novel Altneuland, Reshid Bey, who is one of the leaders of the "New Society", is very grateful to his Jewish neighbors for improving the economic condition of Palestine and sees no cause for conflict. All non-Jews have equal rights, and an attempt by a fanatical rabbi to disenfranchise the non-Jewish citizens of their rights fails in the election which is the center of the main political plot of the novel.

                    However, in his diary, Herzl wrote that land in Palestine was to be gently expropriated from the Palestinian Arabs and they were to be worked across the border unbemerkt (surreptitiously), e.g. by refusing them employment. Herzl's draft of a charter for a Jewish-Ottoman Land Company (JOLC) gave the JOLC the right to obtain land in Palestine by giving its owners comparable land elsewhere in the Ottoman empire. According to Walid Khalidi this indicates Herzl's "bland assumption of the transfer of the Palestinian to make way for the immigrant colonist."
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Herzl


                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by olivenstein View Post
                      You're right, Torien. I am only beginning to understand this conflict. I have read much on this conflict, have lived with an Israeli woman, and have spoken (or to put it better, been given speeches by) quite a few Arabs when I was living in Europe in the '90s.

                      Yet there are perspectives I have only partly read into (in no order): the Bible for one! the Crusades, inner-Arab divisions, Arab Legion, Bonaparte's march from Egypt into Palestine and his promises to both Arabs and Jews (starting a French diplomatic tradition for the Near East!). Napolean III's conflict with the Tsar over the Holy Land, Armenian vs Greek and/or Russian Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant, the splits between revisionist and labour, ashkenaz and sepharade (plus sepharade marokai and sepharade ottomite/classique), the Cold War, the Diaspora key participants in the New Left divided between Marxist and Zionism after the Six-Day War and the myriad events of 1968, the alphabet soup of PLO, PLFP, PA, the list goes on...very 'byzantine' to say the least.

                      One good source on a British perspective (Palestine is the third box down): http://www.britains-smallwars.com/main/index1.html

                      and Anton La Guardia's book War Without End (he is currently with The Economist, I believe, formally Daily Telegraph, titled Holy Land, Unholy War in the UK) is one of the clearest and most accessible that jumps to mind.
                      Obviously you understand this conflict better than most!

                      Thanks for the info and the link.
                      History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon. Napoleon Bonaparte
                      _________
                      BoRG
                      __________
                      "I am Arthur, King of the Britons!"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Torien View Post
                        Obviously you understand this conflict better than most!

                        Thanks for the info and the link.
                        Agreed. All I really know is that the Middle East is where 3 continents collide, and that its no surprise both great knowledge and great sorrow as differing peoples with differing cultures and histories interact for better and worse.
                        How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                        Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          IMHO it is just a matter of time before the Egyptians and Syrians bow to internal pressure and attack israel. Then the **** will really hit the fan. a great big bucket load of explosive diarrea at that.
                          Anyone else here from the planet fubar?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I hope you are wrong crazydod but I am afraid the external pressure from the other Middle Eastern nations will force Egypt and Syria to attack.
                            In that case, I think Israel can hold her own as she did in 1967 and 1973. If Iran should butt her big nose into it, then we have Armaggeddon (sp?) as spelled out in Revelations. World War III would start. WWIV would then be fought with rocks and sticks (Albert Einstein).
                            Peace is Our Profession

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              No prob, Torien. I like the Bonaparte quote that you chose. Here's something I found in Wikipedia on Napoleon and the Jews (and the possibility of a Jewish state when he marched from the Pyramids throught Gaza to Acre); interestingly Eric Weider's (of Armchairgeneral magazine) late father Ben Weider is mentionned:

                              Though Ben Weider argued that Napoleon had to be extremely careful in defending oppressed minorities such as Jews, he clearly saw political benefit to his Empire in the long term in supporting them. He hoped to use equality as a way of gaining advantage from discriminated groups, like Jews or Protestants and Catholics. Both aspects of his thinking can be seen in a response to a physician (Barry O'Meara) who asked why he pressed for the emancipation of the Jews, after his exile in 1816:
                              My primary desire was to liberate the Jews and make them full citizens. I wanted to confer upon them all the legal rights of equality, liberty and fraternity as was enjoyed by the Catholics and Protestants. It is my wish that the Jews be treated like brothers as if we were all part of Judaism. As an added benefit, I thought that this would bring to France many riches because the Jews are numerous and they would come in large numbers to our country where they would enjoy more privileges than in any other nation. Without the events of 1814, most of the Jews of Europe would have come to France where equality, fraternity and liberty awaited them and where they can serve the country like everyone else.
                              [edit]Bonaparte and a Jewish state in Palestine
                              During the siege of Acre in 1799, Bonaparte prepared a proclamation declaring a Jewish state in Palestine, though he did not issue it. The siege was lost to the Ottoman Empire and the plan was never carried out. Some historians, including Nathan Schur in Napoleon and the Holy Land, believe that the proclamation was intended purely for propaganda purposes, and that Napoleon was not serious about the creation of a Jewish state. Some believe that the proclamation was made in order to win the heart of Haim Farhi, the Jewish advisor to the ruler of Acre, Ahmed al Jazzar, and to bring him over to Napoleon's side, as Farhi was the actual commander of the defence of Acre on the field.
                              Still, this proclamation in 1799 is counted by some as having historic importance in the history of Zionism, because it was made by the major political power of its time, many years before Theodor Herzl's Der Judenstaat or the Balfour Declaration. Furthermore, the proclamation was used by the founders of today's State of Israel in 1948 to argue the case for the resurrection of their state.
                              [edit]Napoleon's legacy

                              Napoleon's indirect influence on the fate of the Jews was even more powerful than any of the decrees recorded in his name. By breaking up the feudal trammels of mid-Europe and introducing the equality of the French Revolution he effected more for Jewish emancipation than had been accomplished during the three preceding centuries. The consistory of Westphalia became a model for other German provinces until after the fall of Napoleon, and the condition of the Jews in the Rhine provinces was permanently improved as a consequence of their subjection to Napoleon or his representatives. Heine and Börne both record their sense of obligation to the liberality of Napoleon's principles of action, and the German Jews in particular have always regarded Napoleon as one of the chief forerunners of emancipation in Germany. When Jews were selecting surnames, some of them are said to have expressed their gratitude by taking the name of "Schöntheil," a translation of "Bonaparte," and legends grew up about Napoleon's activity in the Jewish ghettos. Primo Levi said that the Italian Jews often chose Napoleone as their given name to recognize their liberator.
                              [edit]The reactions of the major European powers
                              The first to object against the creation of the Great Sanhedrin was the Russian Czar Alexander I. He violently denounced the liberties given to the Jews and went further still, demanding that the Orthodox Church protest against Napoleon's tolerant religious policy. He referred to the Emperor in a proclamation as "the Anti Christ" and the "Enemy of God".
                              The Holy Synod of Moscow proclaimed : "In order to destroy the foundations of the Churches of Christendom, the Emperor of the French has invited into his capital all the Judaic synagogues and he furthermore intends to found a new Hebrew Sanhedrin. Which is the same tribunal that dared long ago to condemn the Lord Jesus to be crucified."
                              In Austria, the Chancellor Metternich wrote "I fear that the Jews will believe (Napoleon) to be their promised Messiah".
                              In Prussia, the Lutheran Church was extremely hostile, while in Italy the reactions were less virulent but remained unfriendly.
                              The reaction of London was unequivocal, rejecting the principle and doctrine of the Sanhedrin.

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