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The Boy in the Striped Pajamas

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  • Geek44
    replied
    Originally posted by mjhbuckeye View Post
    And there is no question that I feel some guilt and responsibility, not to mention shame for those actions of the part of the US of A. If you want to extend it many generations, I am appalled by the relocation and genocide of the Native Americans and the instituionalized slavery of Black Africans in America and the continued discrimination against those minorities. That being said I would never endorse a self apologetic book or movie on those subjects, like TBITSP, as "educational" of the incidents in question. Nor did those occurences rise to the highly systematic homicides perpetrated by the Nazis which were facilitated by every social strata and every institution in Germany, and for which there is no excuse.
    Well, that's a pretty good response and I admire your not trying to give me some 'that's entirely different' kind of BS.
    I guess I'm of a pretty different mind to you about the 'guilt' of Germany.
    I guess my opinion here comes from me trying to put myself into the shoes of an ordinary German from the time. If I did know about what was really happening, would I have spoken out and thus sealed my own fate? If I'm honest...I doubt it. I have two kids.
    It's my opinion that the German people were as much victims of Hitler and his crew than anyone else. Genocidal governments are pretty common. I think the thing I found most hard to digest in your posts above was the assertion that Germany is a 'genocidal people'. That's judging the many by the actions of the few. Are Americans 'genocidal'? We could ask the Apache or the Vietnamese. Are Australians 'genocidal'...hell yes! Ask the aborigines...especially those from Tasmania...oh, that's right, there aren't any left...we killed them ALL.
    How responsible do I feel about that. Not one bit. I feel regret, sadness and I'm appalled by the waste and the lost culture...I'd even apologize that my ancestors were so greedy and ignorant but I didn't instigate it and I couldn't stop it (not born then) so I don't feel guilt.
    As for the last government we had that has blood on its hands...do I feel responsible? Nope. I did everything within my power to change what was happening. I voted for the 'other guy' and I marched on the streets three times...not my usual thing. I'm outraged but not responsible.
    I consider myself fortunate that I was able to do these things too. In Germany in the twenties and thirties...I'd have joined 'em in the ovens. We'd all like to think we'd make a stand and resist but I wonder how many would actually do so. I don't blame ordinary Germans...they were only human.
    Peace.

    Leave a comment:


  • Konzev
    replied
    Back to the Movie

    The Way I percived the movie, was an entirely diffrent experience.

    This Family, is a family that could exist in every country of the world,
    given they are not facilitatos of atrocities.
    The Man of the House driven by his work and ambitions, only concerned about the courier. The pretty wife has no interest in her husbands work,
    and ignores the sometimes inconvinient or disturbing side-effects.
    She's a home-maker concerned only about the welfare of her children, and off course enjoying the spoils of her husbands wealth.

    It taught me go to the next mirror, and ask myself the question:

    I'm living a good and comfortable life,
    a.) Do I live it by exploiting other human beings ?
    b.) Do I really know what my Goverment does ?
    c.) What were the reasons for the party I was voting for ?
    d.) Did I really study all the facts deep enough ,about a war, that my country is involved in ? Or do I more and more believe the official story
    out of convinience ?
    e.) Why are we building a fortress around our country ?
    f.) Who is really responsible for torturing people by members of our intelligence service in foreign countries, do I really care ?
    g.) Can I trust our media ?
    h.) Did I allready put my head in the sand ?
    i.) Do I really have the oversight about checks and balances ?

    That was honestly my perception, and this movie got me going ...

    Leave a comment:


  • Pirateship1982
    replied
    Originally posted by mjhbuckeye View Post
    Sorry guys, but this film (and the book upon which it was based) is an unmitigated piece of crap which has has no basis in reality, trivializes the horrors of the Holocaust and serves as an apology for the self-proclaimed "master race" who committed mass murder.

    Some historical flubs [or intentionally manipulative plot devices] (1) Schmuel, the waifish nine-year old Jewish inmate of Auschwitz and friend to young Nazi Bruno, would never have been there for Bruno to befriend; all Jewish children of Schmuel's age were gassed immediately upon admission to the camps. The Nazi's never made little "striped pajamas" because there was no utility for them. (2) What language is too-stupid-to-know-about-Hitler-and-the-war Bruno using to communicate with Schmuel? This movie is set late in the war, by which time most, if not all German Jews had been exterminated, so Schmule must have come from one of the occupied countries. What a coincidence, they are able to communicate. Right. (3) Bruno would never have been anywhere near Auschwitz. While many of the death camps where in not so remote areas of Germany proper, Auschwitz was in a very rural area of Poland, essentially still in a war zone. The death camp commander (Bruno's father) would not have been allowed to relocate his family from Berlin to the war zone. But of course without Bruno, there is no story. (4) Bruno, despite being 9 years old and the children of German elite thinks that the place they have been relocated to is called "out-with", a play on, or aural misinterpretation of Auschwitz. Well I can see that happening...only if the kid spoke and heard things in ENGLISH. In German, "out with" would be pronounced "aut-mit", which, of course, sounds nothing like the death camp name. (5) Again, dumb-dumb Bruno thinks they have been sent to "the farm" by the "Fury" (Fuherer/Fury...get it? Same misunderstanding as above). You mean to tell me that a kid of that age doesn't know about his country's supreme leader, what he is called and, more importantly, what he stands for? This is where the apologist crap starts by portraying Bruno as an innocent; even though he is the child of a hard core Nazi of such rank that Hitler sends him to command his number one death camp, the child is completely ignorant of the national policy to discrimnate against, persecute and ultimately elimate Jews. Even worse is Bruno's mother's "outrage" as she suddenly becomes aware of what goes on at the camp. You mean she had no idea about the final solution before then? Holy crap we are suppose to feel bad for the "good Nazis"? Oh they are just following orders? That didn't work for the crowd that were hanged at Nuremberg and certainly doesn't save this trite bit of dreck.

    Now, granted films like Schindler's List and Life is Beautiful had their share of problems and functioned more as allegorical stories then factual recitations, they were both miles ahead of TBITSP both in historical authenticity and moral integrity in fixing the blame for the Holocaust exactly where it belongs. This manipulative sleight-of-hand should no more be recommended for children to learn about the Holocaust then JFK should be recommended as a scholarly study of the assasination. Avoid at all costs.
    I feel you are right on some points and wrong on others. There are historical inaccuracies to be sure. There always are. But this film was never intended to be a docudrama. The subtitle of the book calls it a fable. When you openly admit that historical accuracy is not your intention, I tend to be a bit more forgiving of taking liberties.

    Now about Bruno's ignorance, no he would most certainly not been ignorant of Hitler and he would not have been ignorant of Jewish prejudice. However he would have possessed a high level of naivete, remember the characters are eight. At that age you don't have much political awareness of anything that isn't standing right in front of you. When I was eight Operation Desert Storm went down and I was ignorant to anything beyond the fact that it had something to do with a man called Saddam Hussein and reporters in the region often gave reports wearing gas masks. The geopolitical intricacies were far beyond me.

    The misproninciation of the word Furher is perfectly legitimate and an attempt by the author to keep the book running through the child's eyes. I've seen kids that age and older make comically ironic mispronunciations before.

    As for the true awareness of the Holocaust, you are wrong that everyone knew what was going on. People knew Jews were being rounded up and sent to work camps but few knew that there was ethnic cleansing going on. Officers in charge were commanded to keep that little bit hush hush. The SS was crazy but they weren't stupid, few people would support something as radical as a death camp. So they were put in "work camps". Complete ignorance of the final solution was not uncommon and many were horrified to learn about it, especially those who disagreed with the work camps to begin with. Some even committed suicide out of remorse.

    But summing it up, I don't consider this film apologetic of Nazis at all. I don't see one excuse for the holocaust in the whole film. In fact the film takes plenty of time to show just how horrible the holocaust was. Now the characters aren't portrayed in stereotypical supervillain matter but there is hardly anything inaccurate about that. Evil people still have a human nature. A man can be a complete scumbag to humanity and still love his family, there is nothing strange about that. Few people are cookie cutter personalities.

    Leave a comment:


  • mjhbuckeye
    replied
    Originally posted by Geek44 View Post
    Hey Konzev, by this guy's logic, he's responsible for Guantanamo, renditions and a BS war in Iraq.
    Peace.
    And there is no question that I feel some guilt and responsibility, not to mention shame for those actions of the part of the US of A. If you want to extend it many generations, I am appalled by the relocation and genocide of the Native Americans and the instituionalized slavery of Black Africans in America and the continued discrimination against those minorities. That being said I would never endorse a self apologetic book or movie on those subjects, like TBITSP, as "educational" of the incidents in question. Nor did those occurences rise to the highly systematic homicides perpetrated by the Nazis which were facilitated by every social strata and every institution in Germany, and for which there is no excuse.

    Leave a comment:


  • Geek44
    replied
    Hey Konzev, by this guy's logic, he's responsible for Guantanamo, renditions and a BS war in Iraq.
    Peace.

    Leave a comment:


  • mjhbuckeye
    replied
    I'm sorry my friend, not because I thought you a revisionist, but because you are touched by the guilt of the Holocaust and must live in some measure with that. A lot of revisionist thinkers often minimize the horror of the Final Solution of the Jewish Question by pointing out the other groups which were murdered in the camps and exaggerating the numbers and percentages of those other groups. Forgive me for pointing it out but you did exactly the same thing; first talking about a million non-Jewish, anti-Hitler camp deaths and then providing figures which come nowhere that total. In fact, I can find no source which supports the numbers you speak of. Were these folks you spoke of complicit in the murder of the Jews? Did any one of them suffer confinement, deportation, denaturalization, disinfranchisment and/or death because they resisted the Jewish solution of the government? I would think not. While some of Hitler's victims were murdered as part of the spoils of war (think the ethnic Poles, the Russian POWs) the overwhelming majority of the camp deaths were Jews killed as part of the well oiled machinery and policy of the government, and by extension, those governed. I'm sorry, that is just the way it is.

    As such, the Holcaust was a tragedy for the victims, primarily the Jewish peoples who were targeted for extermination, but was not, and can never be a tragedy for the German people. To get back to the stupid movie, TBITSP attempts to create the impression, through manipulation of facts which could never have actually occurrred, that non-Jewish Germans, in this case the family of a death camp commander, could be as victimized by the Holocaust as the camp inmates. I don't care what fanciful facts are portrayed we can never forget who the victims of the Holocaust were and can never allow ourselves to sold a bill of goods in slick Hollywood dressing about where our unshared sympathies should lie.
    Last edited by mjhbuckeye; 06 Apr 09, 11:47.

    Leave a comment:


  • Konzev
    replied
    Statistisches Bundesamt

    The Statistisches Bundesamt has no concrete numbers on the on the non jewish and non foreign, as in german reich citizens, mudered in Concentration Camps. All I know, those numbers where substantial.
    The bygone GDR (East Germany)claims that over 123 000 Comunist's and their sympathizers
    where mudered in the KZ's. Out of the 123 000, 10 to 15 % might have been
    jewish aswell.
    The SPD (Social Democrats) claim about 41 000, again 10 - 15 % where of jewish affiliation and have to be deducted.
    Franco the Dictator of Spain deported 2743 captured german Interbrigadist's
    (anti fascist fighters from all political fractions)
    back to Germany, not one of them survived. Again the 10 - 15% have to be deducted.
    No statistics of Wehrkraftzersetzer (pacifists), the estimated number goes into cirka 90 000.
    This number includes Soldiers that did not report back to their units, after
    a leave. For reason of refusing to fight.
    The above Persons had special shoulderbadges or breastbadges to wear on their KZ uniforms. They were thrown in with the jewish inmantes, not seperated.
    When it came to the general population, jokes about Hitler were enough
    to get you into a Concentration Camp. They also had to wear the political prisoner batch. Many germans, an estimated 200 000 where arrested on pure suspicion, because a Blockwart (Community Guard) denaunciated them to the Gestapo.
    Verwahrloste Jugenliche (10 -14 years old socially not functioning Children) ,Parents and NSDAP(Nazi Party) could not control them, an estimated 19 000 ended up in the Camps .

    There is more, I'm just giving you an example how the Third Reich dealt with people by pure terror, and how they disposed them.

    There was no policy in place to seperate the inmates, unless a special infrastructure allowed the Komandants to do so. It was to expansive for them to have them seperated.
    Watch the movies http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071688/
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056271/
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0399007/
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0230273/
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0305244/

    The exception where POW's, Russian and Polish soldiers where always seperated from the other western allies. Because western allies where granted a better treatment than the according to Nazi Doctrin lesser slavistic races.

    I have a lot of material collected over the years about the german resistance, and I would gladly share the informations I have with you.
    I can give you detailed information how life was under nazi terror,
    some are gathered and lived by my own family.
    If you can refrain of personal attacks, since you should know by now,
    that I'm not an apologist nor a revisionist.
    You thought you had one, did You ?
    So please inquire, where your fellow forum member is comming from, before you jump into the judgement phase.

    Leave a comment:


  • mjhbuckeye
    replied
    Again, according to the estimates of several scholars in the field, the Nazis murdered:

    5.9 million Jews
    2-3 million Soviet POWs
    2 million ethnic Poles
    250,000-1.5 million Gypsies of various national origin
    200,000-250,000-mentally and physically disabled individuals
    80,000-200,000 Freemasons
    5000-15,000-Gays
    5000 Jehovah's Witnesses

    I have seen nothing to suggest that there was anything near the numbers you claim of German anti-facists who were systematically murdered by the Nazis, and certainly never, "side-by-side" with their, how did you put it, "[J]ewish compatriots". Over 90 percent of Jews in Germany, Austria, Poland, Bohemia and the Baltic states were murdered. What percentage of "non-Jewish, anti-Facists dissedents" died right beside Jews or otherwise?

    Leave a comment:


  • Konzev
    replied
    You only answered my question partially.

    Originally posted by mjhbuckeye View Post
    You asked if I could defend the assertion that Nazi Germany was a genocidial state and, thus, the German people of the time were, more or less, collectively guilty for the Holocaust. I believe there is ample proof for that submission. From an article on the Holocaust:

    Every arm of the country's sophisticated
    bureaucracy was involved in the killing
    process. Parish churches and the Interior
    Ministry provided birth records showing who
    was Jewish; the Post Office delivered the
    deportation and denaturalization orders; the
    Finance Ministry confiscated Jewish property
    with the aid of banks and financial institutions;
    German firms fired Jewish workers and
    disinfranchised Jewish stockholders; schools
    and universities refused to admit Jews, denied
    degrees to those already studying and fired
    academics of Jewish ancestory; government
    transport offices arranged the trains (run by
    civilian employees) for deportation to the death
    camps; German pharmaceutical companies
    tested their drugs on camp prisoners; German
    companies bid on contracts to build crematoria;
    all of the property, both personal and real, of
    the deported and murdered Jews was recycled,
    resold and reused by the German people.

    It goes on to say that the Jewish Holocaust, the Final Sloution, was sucessfully undertaken because:

    antisemitic policies were able to unfold with-
    out the interference of countervailing forces
    of the kind normally found in advanced societies,
    such as industry, small businesses, churches
    and other vested interests and lobby groups.

    In other words, if there wasn't actual physical support for the Final Solution, there existed knowing disinterest, non-interference with and acquiessence in the policy of Jewish disenfranchisment and extermination. If the Germans of the 30s and 40s fell into either camp (and as can be seen above, it encompasses pretty much all phases and strata of the population), then yes they are morally responsible for the atrocities committed upon the Jews. Period.
    You have not excluded the Million of german anti fascist Dissidents, who perished right beside their jewish compatriots, in the Deathcamps:
    Liberals,
    Socialists,
    Social Democrats,
    Communists,
    Unionist's,
    Christians,
    and other Dissidents.
    You have them still categorized as "Collectivly Guilty".
    Therefore I can not let you off the hook.

    Leave a comment:


  • mjhbuckeye
    replied
    You asked if I could defend the assertion that Nazi Germany was a genocidial state and, thus, the German people of the time were, more or less, collectively guilty for the Holocaust. I believe there is ample proof for that submission. From an article on the Holocaust:

    Every arm of the country's sophisticated
    bureaucracy was involved in the killing
    process. Parish churches and the Interior
    Ministry provided birth records showing who
    was Jewish; the Post Office delivered the
    deportation and denaturalization orders; the
    Finance Ministry confiscated Jewish property
    with the aid of banks and financial institutions;
    German firms fired Jewish workers and
    disinfranchised Jewish stockholders; schools
    and universities refused to admit Jews, denied
    degrees to those already studying and fired
    academics of Jewish ancestory; government
    transport offices arranged the trains (run by
    civilian employees) for deportation to the death
    camps; German pharmaceutical companies
    tested their drugs on camp prisoners; German
    companies bid on contracts to build crematoria;
    all of the property, both personal and real, of
    the deported and murdered Jews was recycled,
    resold and reused by the German people.

    It goes on to say that the Jewish Holocaust, the Final Sloution, was sucessfully undertaken because:

    antisemitic policies were able to unfold with-
    out the interference of countervailing forces
    of the kind normally found in advanced societies,
    such as industry, small businesses, churches
    and other vested interests and lobby groups.

    In other words, if there wasn't actual physical support for the Final Solution, there existed knowing disinterest, non-interference with and acquiessence in the policy of Jewish disenfranchisment and extermination. If the Germans of the 30s and 40s fell into either camp (and as can be seen above, it encompasses pretty much all phases and strata of the population), then yes they are morally responsible for the atrocities committed upon the Jews. Period.

    Leave a comment:


  • Konzev
    replied
    What Absolution ?

    Originally posted by mjhbuckeye View Post
    Ignorance and poor eduaction on the part of the German population does not translate into absolution for the moral failure to distinguish right from wrong. That is the revisionism.
    What gives you the idea, that the german people are absolved for the moral failure ?

    In my reality, I try constantly to remind them of their past failures, just as I condem the failure of other Poeople who abused humanity.
    It's a livetime job.

    I myself have sinned in the past, I try to live with it, by trying to correct my past wrongs. I believe when the individualis ready to reconcile,
    he should not shift the burden to his religion, .to take it off his shoulders.
    He should deal with his concience, by confronting his mistakes to the persons he had wronged

    Leave a comment:


  • Konzev
    replied
    Oldenough to know better

    Originally posted by mjhbuckeye View Post
    Keep it on topic sir; it was you that talked about this silly film as an educational tool for the Holocaust. Let's talk about the degree of guilt for a camp commander, his wife and their, old-enough-to-know-better, son (all of whom the manipulative movie tries to make the viewer feel sorry for) and the answer is very high. It's a dumb film which sends the wrong message.
    Why do you believe this movie is there to envoke sympathy for this family,
    I certainly don't feel any sympathy for this family.
    It is you, who doesn't understand the message of this film:
    "People have a responsibility to educate themselves !"
    His wife choose to live in blissfully ignorance, and build a bubble for her son.
    The daughter a typical posterchild and product of brainwashing indoctrination.
    Why should i feel sympathy for that ?
    Fact is, you have not understood the message .
    And you still owe me an explanation about the collective guild of german
    people. I'm not gonna let you of the hook here, because it was you who brought it up.

    Leave a comment:


  • mjhbuckeye
    replied
    Ignorance and poor eduaction on the part of the German population does not translate into absolution for the moral failure to distinguish right from wrong. That is the revisionism.

    Leave a comment:


  • mjhbuckeye
    replied
    Keep it on topic sir; it was you that talked about this silly film as an educational tool for the Holocaust. Let's talk about the degree of guilt for a camp commander, his wife and their, old-enough-to-know-better, son (all of whom the manipulative movie tries to make the viewer feel sorry for) and the answer is very high. It's a dumb film which sends the wrong message.

    Leave a comment:


  • Konzev
    replied
    Using aged science and the consequenze

    Mr mjhbuckeye
    You uploaded your assumptions about my person, now I have to tell you mine, about you.

    So you have categorized the german people as a genocidal society.
    If my english is correct, that would tranlate into:
    All german are collectivly guilty of Genocide.

    Now I'm curious to know, how you categorize the german people who perished in the Third Reich fascist Concentration Camps:
    Like the :
    Liberals,
    Socialists,
    Social Democrats,
    Communists,
    Unionist's,
    Christians,
    and other Dissidents in the Millions.

    What is their degree of Guild ?

    Or what about the german immigrants that joined the allied armies to fight
    fascism, as early as in the spanish civil war.

    What is their degree of Guild ?

    Or simply about the Soldiers of german heritage, fighting in the US or Canadian Army against Hitlers Third Reich ?

    What is their degree of Guild ?

    How far do you want to go ?

    Leave a comment:

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