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  • The Boy in the Striped Pajamas

    I just took a look at this latest Holocaust flick. It involves the activities of the son of a German Concentration Camp commandant. Eight year old Bruno, the main character, has no idea what dear old Dad does for a living but gradually learns that he is living next to a concentration camp. He befriends one of the children on the other side of the fence and the two gradually become friends.

    The acting is good, the plot is interesting, and there are some decent period shots in the beginning. The climactic scene makes good use of music. The ending is a bit Easy Riderish, however, tragic and sudden and then the movie ends.

    Holocaust movies are always a difficult view. At least with The Grey Zone and Defiance you get to see the good guys whack some bad guys in the process.

    The one thing that surprised me was how bad New York Times slammed the movie. Even now that Gaza strip tensions have the libs deciding that the people of Israel were conniving Zionists all along it always seemed to me that there was an unwritten rule of not slamming holocaust movies. And the slam is done poorly with no real points of criticism, just an overall mockery.

    Note: the review has a spoiler.

    http://movies.nytimes.com/2008/11/07...matoes&ei=5083
    A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

  • #2
    A most important Movie

    I use this movie in my Videostore, to recomand it to Parents, that would like to explain the Holocaust to their children.
    Because this movie is shown from the perspective of a young Boy.
    The most striking quality of this movie was the explanatian that historical Atrocities are not committed by "Hollywood Type Villains",
    rather by very common individuals that we deal with in our daily lives:
    People that are political or religously fanatized and who truly believe in the goodness of their cause. You clearly see in this movie, what happens when they are in power or in a institutional position of power.
    There is another movie that deals with this issue in a very honest manner,
    and it is called RAJA 1918 (Border 1918) a big budged finnish Masterpeace,
    produced in 2008.
    I will open an extra thread for this title, and I would especially recommand it to my American Forum Members, who are still unconvinced by the late european movies that have not been marketed in Northamerica, but do deserve a lot of praise.

    Comment


    • #3
      Sorry guys, but this film (and the book upon which it was based) is an unmitigated piece of crap which has has no basis in reality, trivializes the horrors of the Holocaust and serves as an apology for the self-proclaimed "master race" who committed mass murder.

      Some historical flubs [or intentionally manipulative plot devices] (1) Schmuel, the waifish nine-year old Jewish inmate of Auschwitz and friend to young Nazi Bruno, would never have been there for Bruno to befriend; all Jewish children of Schmuel's age were gassed immediately upon admission to the camps. The Nazi's never made little "striped pajamas" because there was no utility for them. (2) What language is too-stupid-to-know-about-Hitler-and-the-war Bruno using to communicate with Schmuel? This movie is set late in the war, by which time most, if not all German Jews had been exterminated, so Schmule must have come from one of the occupied countries. What a coincidence, they are able to communicate. Right. (3) Bruno would never have been anywhere near Auschwitz. While many of the death camps where in not so remote areas of Germany proper, Auschwitz was in a very rural area of Poland, essentially still in a war zone. The death camp commander (Bruno's father) would not have been allowed to relocate his family from Berlin to the war zone. But of course without Bruno, there is no story. (4) Bruno, despite being 9 years old and the children of German elite thinks that the place they have been relocated to is called "out-with", a play on, or aural misinterpretation of Auschwitz. Well I can see that happening...only if the kid spoke and heard things in ENGLISH. In German, "out with" would be pronounced "aut-mit", which, of course, sounds nothing like the death camp name. (5) Again, dumb-dumb Bruno thinks they have been sent to "the farm" by the "Fury" (Fuherer/Fury...get it? Same misunderstanding as above). You mean to tell me that a kid of that age doesn't know about his country's supreme leader, what he is called and, more importantly, what he stands for? This is where the apologist crap starts by portraying Bruno as an innocent; even though he is the child of a hard core Nazi of such rank that Hitler sends him to command his number one death camp, the child is completely ignorant of the national policy to discrimnate against, persecute and ultimately elimate Jews. Even worse is Bruno's mother's "outrage" as she suddenly becomes aware of what goes on at the camp. You mean she had no idea about the final solution before then? Holy crap we are suppose to feel bad for the "good Nazis"? Oh they are just following orders? That didn't work for the crowd that were hanged at Nuremberg and certainly doesn't save this trite bit of dreck.

      Now, granted films like Schindler's List and Life is Beautiful had their share of problems and functioned more as allegorical stories then factual recitations, they were both miles ahead of TBITSP both in historical authenticity and moral integrity in fixing the blame for the Holocaust exactly where it belongs. This manipulative sleight-of-hand should no more be recommended for children to learn about the Holocaust then JFK should be recommended as a scholarly study of the assasination. Avoid at all costs.
      Last edited by mjhbuckeye; 04 Apr 09, 13:14.

      Comment


      • #4
        Facts

        [QUOTE=mjhbuckeye;1164825]Sorry guys, but this film (and the book upon which it was based) is an unmitigated piece of crap which has has no basis in reality, trivializes the horrors of the Holocaust and serves as an apology for the self-proclaimed "master race" who committed mass murder.[/QUOTE

        I agree with you, that this movie is fictional.[/I][/I]

        [QUOTE=mjhbuckeye;1164825]
        Some historical flubs [or intentionally manipulative plot devices] (1) Schmuel, the waifish nine-year old Jewish inmate of Auschwitz and friend to young Nazi Bruno, would never have been there for Bruno to befriend; all Jewish children of Schmuel's age were gassed immediately upon admission to the camps.[QUOTE=mjhbuckeye;1164825]

        You are incorrect. Those children where often used for medical experiments.
        Remember Dr.Mengele ?
        Just as an Example.
        And he was not the only one.
        If they where seperated from the adult inmates, I do not precisely know.


        [QUOTE=mjhbuckeye;1164825]
        The Nazi's never made little "striped pajamas" because there was no utility for them. [QUOTE=mjhbuckeye;1164825]

        I don't know about this fact.

        [QUOTE=mjhbuckeye;1164825]
        (2) What language is too-stupid-to-know-about-Hitler-and-the-war Bruno using to communicate with Schmuel? This movie is set late in the war, by which time most, if not all German Jews had been exterminated,
        [QUOTE=mjhbuckeye;1164825]


        You are wrong about this fact, it was right up to 1944, before the last
        Jewish citicens where rounded up by the Gestapo. Keep in mind, that most of them where related to germans. A not samll segment of this group tried to keep them protected. I recomand to watch the movie "Rosenstrasse":
        http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0298131/


        [QUOTE=mjhbuckeye;1164825]
        so Schmule must have come from one of the occupied countries. What a coincidence, they are able to communicate. Right. [QUOTE=mjhbuckeye;1164825]

        No !
        Jewish Peasants from Poland, the Baltics and Ukraine spoke sort of a
        german Dialect: Jiddish


        [QUOTE=mjhbuckeye;1164825]
        (3) Bruno would never have been anywhere near Auschwitz. While many of the death camps where in not so remote areas of Germany proper, Auschwitz was in a very rural area of Poland, essentially still in a war zone.
        The death camp commander (Bruno's father) would not have been allowed to relocate his family from Berlin to the war zone. But of course without Bruno, there is no story.
        [QUOTE=mjhbuckeye;1164825]

        I don't know if such an order existed for Conzentration Camp Kommandants,not to have their families near by

        [QUOTE=mjhbuckeye;1164825]
        (4) Bruno, despite being 9 years old and the children of German elite thinks that the place they have been relocated to is called "out-with", a play on, or aural misinterpretation of Auschwitz. Well I can see that happening...only if the kid spoke and heard things in ENGLISH. In German, "out with" would be pronounced "aut-mit", which, of course, sounds nothing like the death camp name.
        [QUOTE=mjhbuckeye;1164825]

        I wasn't aware that Auschwitz was the location of this fictional movie

        [QUOTE=mjhbuckeye;1164825]
        (5) Again, dumb-dumb Bruno thinks they have been sent to "the farm" by the "Fury" (Fuherer/Fury...get it? Same misunderstanding as above). You mean to tell me that a kid of that age doesn't know about his country's supreme leader, what he is called and, more importantly, what he stands for? This is where the apologist crap starts by portraying Bruno as an innocent; even though he is the child of a hard core Nazi of such rank that Hitler sends him to command his number one death camp, the child is completely ignorant of the national policy to discrimnate against, persecute and ultimately elimate Jews.
        [QUOTE=mjhbuckeye;1164825]

        If you want to know about Ignorance in General ,interview people you do not know in the street and ask them questions, that you believe they should
        be able to answer. You will be amazed.


        [QUOTE=mjhbuckeye;1164825]
        Even worse is Bruno's mother's "outrage" as she suddenly becomes aware of what goes on at the camp. You mean she had no idea about the final solution before then?
        [QUOTE=mjhbuckeye;1164825]

        Probably not.And You believe somebody would have provided her with that incriminating evidence ?

        [QUOTE=mjhbuckeye;1164825]
        Holy crap we are suppose to feel bad for the "good Nazis"? Oh they are just following orders? That didn't work for the crowd that were hanged at Nuremberg and certainly doesn't save this trite bit of dreck.
        [QUOTE=mjhbuckeye;1164825]

        No, just to demonstrate that terrible crimes or atrocities being committed by People "with good intentions".

        [QUOTE=mjhbuckeye;1164825]
        Now, granted films like Schindler's List and Life is Beautiful had their share of problems and functioned more as allegorical stories then factual recitations, they were both miles ahead of TBITSP both in historical authenticity and moral integrity in fixing the blame for the Holocaust exactly where it belongs. This manipulative sleight-of-hand should no more be recommended for children to learn about the Holocaust then JFK should be recommended as a scholarly study of the assasination. Avoid at all costs[QUOTE=mjhbuckeye;1164825]

        Did TBITSP made any such claims ?

        Comment


        • #5
          [QUOTE=mjhbuckeye;1164825]
          (4) Bruno, despite being 9 years old and the children of German elite thinks that the place they have been relocated to is called "out-with", a play on, or aural misinterpretation of Auschwitz. Well I can see that happening...only if the kid spoke and heard things in ENGLISH. In German, "out with" would be pronounced "aut-mit", which, of course, sounds nothing like the death camp name.
          [QUOTE=mjhbuckeye;1164825]

          I wasn't aware that Auschwitz was the location of this fictional movie

          [QUOTE=mjhbuckeye;1164825]
          (5) Again, dumb-dumb Bruno thinks they have been sent to "the farm" by the "Fury" (Fuherer/Fury...get it? Same misunderstanding as above). You mean to tell me that a kid of that age doesn't know about his country's supreme leader, what he is called and, more importantly, what he stands for? This is where the apologist crap starts by portraying Bruno as an innocent; even though he is the child of a hard core Nazi of such rank that Hitler sends him to command his number one death camp, the child is completely ignorant of the national policy to discrimnate against, persecute and ultimately elimate Jews.
          [QUOTE=mjhbuckeye;1164825]

          If you want to know about Ignorance in General ,interview people you do not know in the street and ask them questions, that you believe they should
          be able to answer. You will be amazed.


          [QUOTE=mjhbuckeye;1164825]
          Even worse is Bruno's mother's "outrage" as she suddenly becomes aware of what goes on at the camp. You mean she had no idea about the final solution before then?
          [QUOTE=mjhbuckeye;1164825]

          Probably not.And You believe somebody would have provided her with that incriminating evidence ?

          [QUOTE=mjhbuckeye;1164825]
          Holy crap we are suppose to feel bad for the "good Nazis"? Oh they are just following orders? That didn't work for the crowd that were hanged at Nuremberg and certainly doesn't save this trite bit of dreck.
          [QUOTE=mjhbuckeye;1164825]

          No, just to demonstrate that terrible crimes or atrocities being committed by People "with good intentions".



          Tell me, exactly what "good intentions" are manifested by people who gas, shoot, torture or work others to death in a systematic fashion after kidnapping them from their homes and robbing them of all their property solely because they feel themselves genetically superior to their victims? If you want to believe that this picture's wife and son were entirely ignorant of what was going on; that the death camp commander father was a decent guy just doing his job and that nobody was aware of what was going on with the smoke of the burning bodies constantly fouling the air then go on to live in your apologist fool's paradise. The fact that you didn't know the camp in the movie was Auschwitz just shows you have not carefully considered this film and its' all to screwed up message. You were the one who claimed to recommend this movie to parents who want to educate their kids on the Holocaust. I can't think of anything more irresponsible.

          Comment


          • #6
            Please do not assume

            [QUOTE=mjhbuckeye;1165127]
            Originally posted by mjhbuckeye View Post



            Tell me, exactly what "good intentions" are manifested by people who gas, shoot, torture or work others to death in a systematic fashion after kidnapping them from their homes and robbing them of all their property solely because they feel themselves genetically superior to their victims? If you want to believe that this picture's wife and son were entirely ignorant of what was going on; that the death camp commander father was a decent guy just doing his job and that nobody was aware of what was going on with the smoke of the burning bodies constantly fouling the air then go on to live in your apologist fool's paradise. The fact that you didn't know the camp in the movie was Auschwitz just shows you have not carefully considered this film and its' all to screwed up message. You were the one who claimed to recommend this movie to parents who want to educate their kids on the Holocaust. I can't think of anything more irresponsible.
            The fascist Third Reich was build on the assumption of a Northern Superior
            Race. This assumption was born out of hate ignorance and lies.
            People that where considered "lower" in this Assumption, had to be dehumanised. The Nazi Elite aware that the german public would not be ready for "a final solution" Decided not to inform the public of their intention to exterminate. Believing that only the deluded elite whorshippers (the SS
            Special Einsatzdgruppen) could execute such an order.
            Members of the SS where recruted from all walks of life, they swore an allegiance to the Fuhrer, believing in it's infallability.
            Off course, you would like to believe that those people would have been more sceptical, but they are not. In general people do not like to look beyond their limited horizons. And they definately do not like to learn from History.
            If you give them simple and charismatic answers to their problems, they might just follow You. It all depends how you package it and how skillfully you lie to them.
            Look at psychological studies being conducted on Universities in the recent past, where Students had to be pretent to be Prisoners or Guards.
            The results do not look kind on humanity.

            Comment


            • #7
              You are completely wrong, Germany has been called by scholars a genocidal society with the final solution permiating every level of the nation, not just the "Nazi elite" as you call it. You seem to want to compartmentalize the guilt (both by action and by complicity) to a very small number of individuals. This was not the verdict of the war crimes trials in Nuremberg nor is it the verdict of scholars who have studied the subject. To kidnap, rob, relocate and then, systematically exterminate over 10 million human beings, some 6 million of them Jews from all over Central and Eastern Europe, the sworn enemy of the Reich as publicly proclaimed by Hitler over and over again, took the actual labor of perhaps a hundred of thousands of men and the knowlege and complicity of hundreds and thousands more. I don't know where you are getting your info, but it is woefully deficient and smacks of revisionism. You sir, should be in no posistion to recommend anything to aid in Holocaust education, until you have, accurately, become educated yourself.

              Comment


              • #8
                Names and assumptions

                Originally posted by mjhbuckeye View Post
                You are completely wrong, Germany has been called by scholars a genocidal society with the final solution permiating every level of the nation, not just the "Nazi elite" as you call it..
                You mean all germans are collectivly guilty ?

                Originally posted by mjhbuckeye View Post
                You seem to want to compartmentalize the guilt (both by action and by complicity) to a very small number of individuals.
                ..

                You must have totally misunderstood what I was trying to explain,
                I was not trying to put the blame on very small number of individuals,
                I was putting the blame squarely on the ignorance and poor eduction
                of the population.

                Originally posted by mjhbuckeye View Post
                This was not the verdict of the war crimes trials in Nuremberg nor is it the verdict of scholars who have studied the subject. To kidnap, rob, relocate and then, systematically exterminate over 10 million human beings, some 6 million of them Jews from all over Central and Eastern Europe, the sworn enemy of the Reich as publicly proclaimed by Hitler over and over again, took the actual labor of perhaps a hundred of thousands of men and the knowlege and complicity of hundreds and thousands more.
                ..
                I do not have an argument with you regarding this, and I happen to agree. I wonder what (English is my second language) justfied your impression about me

                Originally posted by mjhbuckeye View Post
                I don't know where you are getting your info, but it is woefully deficient and smacks of revisionism.
                ..

                Please tell me what revisionism in detail, I do not quite understand how I invoked this judgemment of yours

                Originally posted by mjhbuckeye View Post
                You sir, should be in no posistion to recommend anything to aid in Holocaust education, until you have, accurately, become educated yourself.
                So you are the Judge, on what merits I may ask ?
                Last edited by Konzev; 05 Apr 09, 00:01. Reason: Letter style

                Comment


                • #9
                  Using aged science and the consequenze

                  Mr mjhbuckeye
                  You uploaded your assumptions about my person, now I have to tell you mine, about you.

                  So you have categorized the german people as a genocidal society.
                  If my english is correct, that would tranlate into:
                  All german are collectivly guilty of Genocide.

                  Now I'm curious to know, how you categorize the german people who perished in the Third Reich fascist Concentration Camps:
                  Like the :
                  Liberals,
                  Socialists,
                  Social Democrats,
                  Communists,
                  Unionist's,
                  Christians,
                  and other Dissidents in the Millions.

                  What is their degree of Guild ?

                  Or what about the german immigrants that joined the allied armies to fight
                  fascism, as early as in the spanish civil war.

                  What is their degree of Guild ?

                  Or simply about the Soldiers of german heritage, fighting in the US or Canadian Army against Hitlers Third Reich ?

                  What is their degree of Guild ?

                  How far do you want to go ?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Keep it on topic sir; it was you that talked about this silly film as an educational tool for the Holocaust. Let's talk about the degree of guilt for a camp commander, his wife and their, old-enough-to-know-better, son (all of whom the manipulative movie tries to make the viewer feel sorry for) and the answer is very high. It's a dumb film which sends the wrong message.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Ignorance and poor eduaction on the part of the German population does not translate into absolution for the moral failure to distinguish right from wrong. That is the revisionism.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Oldenough to know better

                        Originally posted by mjhbuckeye View Post
                        Keep it on topic sir; it was you that talked about this silly film as an educational tool for the Holocaust. Let's talk about the degree of guilt for a camp commander, his wife and their, old-enough-to-know-better, son (all of whom the manipulative movie tries to make the viewer feel sorry for) and the answer is very high. It's a dumb film which sends the wrong message.
                        Why do you believe this movie is there to envoke sympathy for this family,
                        I certainly don't feel any sympathy for this family.
                        It is you, who doesn't understand the message of this film:
                        "People have a responsibility to educate themselves !"
                        His wife choose to live in blissfully ignorance, and build a bubble for her son.
                        The daughter a typical posterchild and product of brainwashing indoctrination.
                        Why should i feel sympathy for that ?
                        Fact is, you have not understood the message .
                        And you still owe me an explanation about the collective guild of german
                        people. I'm not gonna let you of the hook here, because it was you who brought it up.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          What Absolution ?

                          Originally posted by mjhbuckeye View Post
                          Ignorance and poor eduaction on the part of the German population does not translate into absolution for the moral failure to distinguish right from wrong. That is the revisionism.
                          What gives you the idea, that the german people are absolved for the moral failure ?

                          In my reality, I try constantly to remind them of their past failures, just as I condem the failure of other Poeople who abused humanity.
                          It's a livetime job.

                          I myself have sinned in the past, I try to live with it, by trying to correct my past wrongs. I believe when the individualis ready to reconcile,
                          he should not shift the burden to his religion, .to take it off his shoulders.
                          He should deal with his concience, by confronting his mistakes to the persons he had wronged

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            You asked if I could defend the assertion that Nazi Germany was a genocidial state and, thus, the German people of the time were, more or less, collectively guilty for the Holocaust. I believe there is ample proof for that submission. From an article on the Holocaust:

                            Every arm of the country's sophisticated
                            bureaucracy was involved in the killing
                            process. Parish churches and the Interior
                            Ministry provided birth records showing who
                            was Jewish; the Post Office delivered the
                            deportation and denaturalization orders; the
                            Finance Ministry confiscated Jewish property
                            with the aid of banks and financial institutions;
                            German firms fired Jewish workers and
                            disinfranchised Jewish stockholders; schools
                            and universities refused to admit Jews, denied
                            degrees to those already studying and fired
                            academics of Jewish ancestory; government
                            transport offices arranged the trains (run by
                            civilian employees) for deportation to the death
                            camps; German pharmaceutical companies
                            tested their drugs on camp prisoners; German
                            companies bid on contracts to build crematoria;
                            all of the property, both personal and real, of
                            the deported and murdered Jews was recycled,
                            resold and reused by the German people.

                            It goes on to say that the Jewish Holocaust, the Final Sloution, was sucessfully undertaken because:

                            antisemitic policies were able to unfold with-
                            out the interference of countervailing forces
                            of the kind normally found in advanced societies,
                            such as industry, small businesses, churches
                            and other vested interests and lobby groups.

                            In other words, if there wasn't actual physical support for the Final Solution, there existed knowing disinterest, non-interference with and acquiessence in the policy of Jewish disenfranchisment and extermination. If the Germans of the 30s and 40s fell into either camp (and as can be seen above, it encompasses pretty much all phases and strata of the population), then yes they are morally responsible for the atrocities committed upon the Jews. Period.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              You only answered my question partially.

                              Originally posted by mjhbuckeye View Post
                              You asked if I could defend the assertion that Nazi Germany was a genocidial state and, thus, the German people of the time were, more or less, collectively guilty for the Holocaust. I believe there is ample proof for that submission. From an article on the Holocaust:

                              Every arm of the country's sophisticated
                              bureaucracy was involved in the killing
                              process. Parish churches and the Interior
                              Ministry provided birth records showing who
                              was Jewish; the Post Office delivered the
                              deportation and denaturalization orders; the
                              Finance Ministry confiscated Jewish property
                              with the aid of banks and financial institutions;
                              German firms fired Jewish workers and
                              disinfranchised Jewish stockholders; schools
                              and universities refused to admit Jews, denied
                              degrees to those already studying and fired
                              academics of Jewish ancestory; government
                              transport offices arranged the trains (run by
                              civilian employees) for deportation to the death
                              camps; German pharmaceutical companies
                              tested their drugs on camp prisoners; German
                              companies bid on contracts to build crematoria;
                              all of the property, both personal and real, of
                              the deported and murdered Jews was recycled,
                              resold and reused by the German people.

                              It goes on to say that the Jewish Holocaust, the Final Sloution, was sucessfully undertaken because:

                              antisemitic policies were able to unfold with-
                              out the interference of countervailing forces
                              of the kind normally found in advanced societies,
                              such as industry, small businesses, churches
                              and other vested interests and lobby groups.

                              In other words, if there wasn't actual physical support for the Final Solution, there existed knowing disinterest, non-interference with and acquiessence in the policy of Jewish disenfranchisment and extermination. If the Germans of the 30s and 40s fell into either camp (and as can be seen above, it encompasses pretty much all phases and strata of the population), then yes they are morally responsible for the atrocities committed upon the Jews. Period.
                              You have not excluded the Million of german anti fascist Dissidents, who perished right beside their jewish compatriots, in the Deathcamps:
                              Liberals,
                              Socialists,
                              Social Democrats,
                              Communists,
                              Unionist's,
                              Christians,
                              and other Dissidents.
                              You have them still categorized as "Collectivly Guilty".
                              Therefore I can not let you off the hook.

                              Comment

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