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  • Thoughts on The Patriot?

    A few scenes that stood out to me,





    How does one rank The Patriot in terms of entertainment?

    How does one rank The Patriot in terms of following historical accuracy?


    The Dragoons were depicted as quite violent, thoughts on this? Could there have been some British Dragoons that were civil and some were violent?
    Long live the Lionheart! Please watch this video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jRDwlR4zbEM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3DBaY0RsxU
    Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory.

    George S Patton

  • #2
    The Patriot is much better as entertainment than it is accurate. Benjamin Martin is a composite of several characters. Francis Marion, "The Swamp Fox" is one of them. Marion did not get marred until after the war. He had many half caste children on his farm! The war in the Carolinas was very brutal as there were many Loyalists there. The Tavington (Tarleton) character was based on a real life soldier who was worse than the man shown. He like to have his way with women he would find on the Backwoods farms.

    There was a battle similar to the one shown. The Militia was posted to the first line and were asked to fire two shots and then they could fall back. They fell back behind the hill and reformed behind the Continentals already in line. The cannon shown might have been too large to have been at this battle. Cannon and the baggage train was hard to move as the area still had lots of trees and few roads and bridges. Cornwallis had to advance into North Carolina to get re-supplied by the Royal Navy. From there he went into Virginia. The French Fleet showed up and ran off the Royal Navy and the result was a siege at Yorktown.

    Pruitt
    Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

    Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

    by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
      The Patriot is much better as entertainment than it is accurate. Benjamin Martin is a composite of several characters. Francis Marion, "The Swamp Fox" is one of them. Marion did not get marred until after the war. He had many half caste children on his farm! The war in the Carolinas was very brutal as there were many Loyalists there. The Tavington (Tarleton) character was based on a real life soldier who was worse than the man shown. He like to have his way with women he would find on the Backwoods farms.

      There was a battle similar to the one shown. The Militia was posted to the first line and were asked to fire two shots and then they could fall back. They fell back behind the hill and reformed behind the Continentals already in line. The cannon shown might have been too large to have been at this battle. Cannon and the baggage train was hard to move as the area still had lots of trees and few roads and bridges. Cornwallis had to advance into North Carolina to get re-supplied by the Royal Navy. From there he went into Virginia. The French Fleet showed up and ran off the Royal Navy and the result was a siege at Yorktown.

      Pruitt
      Those are fair points and I remember my dad telling me that Gibson’s character was based on three men when the movie first came out. Saw the Patriot in theaters with my mom dad and brother what a great American time that was
      Long live the Lionheart! Please watch this video
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jRDwlR4zbEM
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3DBaY0RsxU
      Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory.

      George S Patton

      Comment


      • #4
        I gave it a B-.
        Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
          The Patriot is much better as entertainment than it is accurate. Benjamin Martin is a composite of several characters. Francis Marion, "The Swamp Fox" is one of them. Marion did not get marred until after the war. He had many half caste children on his farm! The war in the Carolinas was very brutal as there were many Loyalists there. The Tavington (Tarleton) character was based on a real life soldier who was worse than the man shown. He like to have his way with women he would find on the Backwoods farms.

          There was a battle similar to the one shown. The Militia was posted to the first line and were asked to fire two shots and then they could fall back. They fell back behind the hill and reformed behind the Continentals already in line. The cannon shown might have been too large to have been at this battle. Cannon and the baggage train was hard to move as the area still had lots of trees and few roads and bridges. Cornwallis had to advance into North Carolina to get re-supplied by the Royal Navy. From there he went into Virginia. The French Fleet showed up and ran off the Royal Navy and the result was a siege at Yorktown.

          Pruitt
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cowpens

          I believe the base of the movie is Daniel Morgan,the self trained American general, and his wipe out of the over confident Tarleton at the battle of Cowpens
          The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by marktwain View Post

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cowpens

            I believe the base of the movie is Daniel Morgan,the self trained American general, and his wipe out of the over confident Tarleton at the battle of Cowpens
            Now I’m interested the wiki article said Tarleton was a gambler of sorts , I wonder which games of change he liked
            Long live the Lionheart! Please watch this video
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jRDwlR4zbEM
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3DBaY0RsxU
            Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory.

            George S Patton

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post

              Now I’m interested the wiki article said Tarleton was a gambler of sorts , I wonder which games of change he liked
              He failed at bluff poker against Morgan, for certain...
              The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

              Comment


              • #8
                An ongoing debate on Armchair General’s Movie Forums got me interested in rewatching “The Patriot”. The debate is centering on two different views. One school can be described as the “Dude, it’s just entertainment. Chill out” school. The opposition takes the position that “this is a raping of history that will undo all the hard work of history teachers”. “The Patriot” is one of the most polarizing recent historically based movies. I tend to come down on the side of the defenders of historical integrity, but I understand why movies take liberties with the truth.

                “The Patriot” was released in 2000 and is a Mel Gibson vehicle. It was directed by Roland Emmerich (“Independence Day”). It is the story of a French and Indian war veteran named Benjamin Martin (Gibson). Martin owns a plantation in South Carolina where he lives with his beautiful family of very photogenic kids (based on Gibson’s kids). The year is 1776 and South Carolinians are debating independence. Martin is against war and favors negotiating. His main reason for his pacifism is concern for his family, but he also did some bad things in the French and Indian War that he does not want to repeat. He cannot prevent his oldest son Gabriel (Heath Ledger) from enlisting. *** SPOILER ALERT: What follows covers the plot.

                Their idyllic plantation life (with their free blacks working alongside them) comes to a halt when the wounded Gabriel returns home and a battle breaks out in their front yard. The next day the British arrive to take possession of the farm. The Brits are led by a dragoon colonel named Tavington (Jason Isaacs) who proceeds to: 1. arrest Gabriel as a spy to be executed 2. kill the wounded Continentals 3. shoot Martin’s second oldest son in the back. Rules of war? Never heard of them. Anyone of the three would have been enough to wake the dragon. Martin (with the help of his other two sons) wipes out an entire unit to free Gabriel.

                Martin realizes you can’t fight the British conventionally so he creates a militia unit based in a swamp. The unit is divided between family men and frontiersmen. There is a token black (fighting for Congress’ promise of freedom) and the requisite racist that he will bond with. They ambush the British in a montage. After one incident of killing prisoners, Martin agrees to stop the practice because they are the good guys. The Brits do not agree to that. The movie marches toward a big set piece battle which features the requisite face-off between Martin and Tavington.

                “The Patriot” is a well made movie. The sets and costumes are time-appropriate. The musical score by John Williams is typically epic and brings out the selected emotion for the scene. The acting is strong and sincere. Gibson has a bit of trouble with the range of rage to romance to reflection, but he does not embarrass himself. Isaacs chews the scenery as Tavington, but he is balanced by the pompous Cornwallis. The kids are good except at aging. The action is visceral and pumps up the adrenalin. Hollywood manages to get the requisite explosions, blood sprays, and dismemberments in quite nicely.

                As far as historical accuracy, “The Patriot” is no “Braveheart”, but it’s a cousin. Martin’s character was based on the trio of Southern guerrilla leaders (Francis Marion, Thomas Sumter, and Andrew Pickens). The resemblance to the “Swamp Fox” is not far off. Tavington is clearly Banestre Tarleton. Tarleton led a dragoon unit in the South and had a reputation for mistreatment of prisoners, especially after the infamous Waxhaw Massacre. At Waxhaw, surrendering colonials were slaughtered by Tarleton’s men. The term “Tarleton’s quarter” became a rallying cry for the patriots. There is much dispute over how culpable Tarleton was for his troops’ behavior . Certainly it was not premeditated. He did, however, burn colonial homes and execute suspected guerrillas. There is no evidence that he targeted women and children and he never burned a church full of civilians. The fact is that the war in the Southern colonies was rife with atrocities by both the patriots and the loyalists, especially in the backwoods areas.

                The final battle is a mash-up of Cowpens and Guilford Court House, which is acceptable. Martin’s strategy of asking the militia to fire two shots before withdrawing is clearly referring to Daniel Morgan’s order at Cowpens. Tarleton was badly defeated in that battle and did fight a duel (on horseback), but with William Washington. Marion, Sumter, and Pickens were not at either of the battles. The Guilford elements include Cornwallis being in command and giving the famous order for his artillery to fire into the melee to break the colonial momentum. This moment is surprisingly glossed over in the movie. The British won the battle of Guilford Court House in spite of being outnumbered. By the way, Tarleton survived the war and lived happily ever after for many years.

                Some other historical flubs are less excusable. The treatment of slavery is a joke. Martin’s use of freed slaves as laborers would have been extremely rare in South Carolina. Congress never offered a deal to grant freedom after one year service. The freed slave community the Martin’s take refuge in would have been created to escape from Patriots.

                As far as military inaccuracies, the most glaring is the incredible accuracy of the weapons used in the movie. Martin never misses a shot with the notoriously inaccurate muskets of that time. Even his young sons are killing machines. Hell, both Martin and Tavington pull off long range shots at moving targets with pistols! The rapid reloading of these muzzle-loading weapons is also hard to believe, but very common in movies. Because Hollywood requires explosions, we get the anachronized shells exploding during the battles.

                My problem with “The Patriot” is not with the historical inaccuracies. I am insulted by the melodramatic chords that are plucked to force emotions on the audience. Nothing in the movie is subtle. You are bludgeoned with clichéd sentiments. This is typical of our modern blockbusters. Movies have been dumbing down for decades now and the cash flow shows that Hollywood’s lack of respect for the intelligence of its clientele is well founded. Every antagonist must be totally evil and every protagonist must be wronged beyond human endurance. If “Jaws” were made today, Chief Brody would be conflicted about having been a shark killer as a young man and the shark must not only kill his family, but rape his grandmother. It would have been impossible to put more venom into Tavington. It was leaking out of his ears . Thankfully, the screenwriter held back on Martin’s motivation to kill Tavington and thus spared most of his family (actually killing the family was probably a proposal that was vetoed by the producers in favor of the rose-colored future implied in the ending).

                The scene that represents my thesis is the church burning. Aside from the fact that it has no basis in reality, the horrendous atrocity is included in the film to make a loathsome villain into the most loathsome villain ever. Was this important enough to turn the British into Nazis? Does it make sense to offend an entire market just to throw one more bucket of slime on Tavington? Didn’t the killing of fan favorite Heath Ledger give the audience enough desire for revenge? Dial it back Hollywood, the villains no longer need to twirl their mustaches.

                In conclusion, its entertainment if you don’t mind having your intelligence insulted. And by the way, why is it called “The Patriot” when the main character is not? He does not bother to fight for his country until and only because his son is killed.

                Comment


                • #9
                  The British tended to use 3 pounder "Grasshopper Guns" because they were mobile and could be mounted on horseback. There were very few roads to move Artillery on and Munitions were lacking. The problem these days is finding one!

                  Pruitt
                  Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                  Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                  by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I watched the movie because of the hot sister-in-law. What was her name, actress and character?
                    Flag: USA / Location: West Coast

                    Prayers.

                    BoRG

                    http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8757/snap1ws8.jpg

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PtsX_Z3CMU

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                    • #11
                      It was one of Rolands better rated films as a director. Even watching the film as a kid in theaters with my parents and brother I did not come away with a view that the British were monsters.

                      Beauty of film and literature as we can have whatever opinion we want on it. I thought the Patriot was very motivating and I give it four out of four stars. And I fully understand some people agree and others would give it one out of four stars. Perhaps I’m bias I saw the film with my family as a kid and it was a good bonding time and a very pro American thing.
                      Long live the Lionheart! Please watch this video
                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jRDwlR4zbEM
                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3DBaY0RsxU
                      Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory.

                      George S Patton

                      Comment

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