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Starship Troopers, best war movie of all time?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Truong-si View Post
    Good book, horrible movie.
    Cardboard cut-out characters running about in nazi stug wrappers.
    A lot of superficial thinkers buy into the "earned citizenship" concept.
    In this story's context it is a purely fascist society that nobody would want to live in.
    I do believe in some sort of mandatory service, but not in the context of "Starship Troopers."
    Indeed, although I actually don't believe in any type of mandatory service.
    “To discriminate against a thoroughly upright citizen because he belongs to some particular church, or because, like Abraham Lincoln, he has not avowed his allegiance to any church, is an outrage against that liberty of conscience which is one of the foundations of American life.”

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Aries View Post
      The word "best" should not be applied to Starship Troopers unless immediately followed by "example of garbage scifi film ever".
      Aries?
      Didn't the scene where the Drill Instructor threw the knife at the recruit's hand, seem realistic and exciting at the same time?
      The standard issue infantry weapons were pretty puny.
      I liked it.
      My favorite?
      Right now, I'd have to say...the 2nd 1/2 of the John Wayne Alamo Movie. It always seems like the Texans might win but, @#*!, once the Mexicans get on the wall, it's over...


      "Advances in technology tend to overwhelm me."

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Overseer View Post
        Everyone on these boards should be required to read Heinlein's Starship Troopers if for nothing else than the exploration of citizenship and military.
        I played the game, does that count?
        If you can't set a good example, be a glaring warning.

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        • #19
          Service Gurantees Citizenship!

          Yes quite the strange little thread...
          The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed. -Carl Jung

          Hell is other people. -Jean-Paul Sarte

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Wolster View Post
            I have never seen a film yet that was as good or better than the book, on any subject.

            The movie Jaws was better then the book.
            The movie Starship Troopers…Well let’s just say that it was a good thing Robert was already dead when the movie was made (or it would have killed him).
            Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedy. -- Ernest Benn

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            • #21
              Devil in Mrs Jones, oh wait, not a book.

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              • #22
                Any similarity between the movie "Starship Troopers" and the book of the same name is purely coincidental. I'm not sure the people making the movie even read the book, other than to plagarize it for character names.

                The old AH game was a pretty good representation of the combat as detailed in the book. A good adaptation!

                This movie needs to be made again, this time titled as:

                "Robert Heinlein's Starship Troopers!"
                Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Overseer View Post
                  Everyone on these boards should be required to read Heinlein's Starship Troopers if for nothing else than the exploration of citizenship and military.
                  You remember kind of military, which the book argues in chapter two, this would produces? A service full of people who cannot be denied entry for any reason other than inability to understand the oath. Everyone forgets that bit. You must also consider what happens when the military controls the government? Which is a defacto state of affairs when only those with service are allowed to vote. And what about others who have made great contributions to their county? Industrialists, scientists, doctors... hasn't their service and sacrifice earned them the right to vote? Doesn't the hard working dedicated entrepreneur, who contributes hundreds of thousands in taxes, get a say in how his money is spent? Without him who would pay for the bloated military that cannot find work for all the unqualified, but constitutionally guaranteed membership. Also, membership in the military is cheapened when it is open to everyone regardless of ability, aptitude, dedication, disability, etc... Like the recruiting sergeant points out, membership in the military is stylish rather than purposeful or meaningful.
                  Last edited by Duncan; 17 Feb 07, 22:15.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Duncan View Post
                    You remember kind of military, which the book argues in chapter two, this would produces? A service full of people who cannot be denied entry for any reason other than psychiatric. Everyone forgets that bit. And what happens when the military controls the government? Which is a defacto state of affairs when only those with service are allowed to vote.
                    Well for one thing we wouldn’t have the government running because it is controlled by people that have never had to sacrifice anything to get what they want. It would be controlled by those that understand what they are asking the troops to do, and what those troops are capable of.

                    Originally posted by Duncan View Post
                    And what about others who have made great contributions to their county? Industrialists, scientists, doctors... hasn't their service and sacrifice earned them the right to vote? Doesn't the hard working dedicated entrepreneur, who contributes hundreds of thousands in taxes, get a say in how his money is spent? Without him who would pay for the bloated military that cannot find work for all the unqualified, but constitutionally guaranteed membership, which it has become stylish to serve in?
                    And how is that any different than paying for the bloated “welfare” budget for the millions “that cannot find work for all the unqualified, but constitutionally guaranteed membership” whose only qualification for membership is the ability to breath.
                    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedy. -- Ernest Benn

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by tsar View Post
                      Well for one thing we wouldn’t have the government running because it is controlled by people that have never had to sacrifice anything to get what they want. It would be controlled by those that understand what they are asking the troops to do, and what those troops are capable of.
                      There is something of a debate here. First, this is utopian fiction, not anthropology. Second, Heinlien stated in Expanded Universe (2003) that he intended in the book that only 5% of service was military. The other 95% of voters were "what we call today former members of federal civil service." Even though Heinlien said this there is a big debate that the book doesn't support what he said. However, if you think of what the enlistment sergeant said about service being stylish, there being too many volunteers, and the difficulty of finding work that is more than glorified KP; also the inability to refuse service, it's not unreasonable to think that a large number of the volunteers would not be destined for military service and therefore would not understand the sacrifice, duty, or purpose of a military career. The purpose of enlistment in the book is not to serve the nation, but to gain a franchise and be stylish.

                      And how is that any different than paying for the bloated “welfare” budget for the millions “that cannot find work for all the unqualified, but constitutionally guaranteed membership” whose only qualification for membership is the ability to breath.
                      Next time you walk downtown and see a homeless person begging for money in order to buy alchohol or drugs ask yourself if you would serve next to them or have the fate of your country in their hands? According to Heinlien they could not be denied unless a psychiatrist decided they could not understand the oath. Also, Heinlien's utopia does not eliminate these people. Service is voluntary. I don't think Heinlien tells us anything about how he thinks the requirement of federal service to earn a franchise would effect chronic welfare recipients. I don't think he addresses chronic welfare recipients at all in the book.
                      Last edited by Duncan; 17 Feb 07, 22:56.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Duncan View Post

                        Next time you walk downtown and see a homeless person begging for money in order to buy alchohol or drugs ask yourself if you would serve next to them or have the fate of your country in their hands? According to Heinlien they could not be denied unless a psychiatrist decided they could not understand the oath. Also, Heinlien's utopia does not eliminate these people. Service is voluntary. I don't think Heinlien tells us anything about how he thinks the requirement of federal service to earn a franchise would effect chronic welfare recipients. I don't think he addresses chronic welfare recipients at all in the book.
                        Probably because at the time he wrote the book chronic welfare didn’t exist (at least not on the scale it does today). In the late 40’s early 50’s there wasn’t a sense that everyone deserved a middle class lifestyle regardless of weather or not they were willing to work for it. I would say that it is unlikely that this particular problem occurred to him.
                        Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedy. -- Ernest Benn

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by tsar View Post
                          Probably because at the time he wrote the book chronic welfare didn’t exist (at least not on the scale it does today). In the late 40’s early 50’s there wasn’t a sense that everyone deserved a middle class lifestyle regardless of weather or not they were willing to work for it. I would say that it is unlikely that this particular problem occurred to him.
                          Which is another example of why Heinlien's work of utopian fiction is not an appropriate framework for our current society and should not be used as a model for democracy in the real world. It was written by a man living in a different culture than ours with different information about the world. It is based on a set of created information in a fictional world in which Hienlein has absolute control over the conflicts and outcomes. The book was published in 1959. It cannot tell us about the world in 2007. What it can tell us about is Heinlien's view of the world during the time in which he wrote it.

                          Sometimes we can pull an idea from a work of fiction and say, "How would this work in our world?" But we cannot say, "This is a good idea because it worked in a fictional book." If we're gonna do that I choose Conan as my world view!

                          If folks want to argue that military service should be mandatory in order to vote, fine. But don't use a work of utopian fiction written 50 years ago as proof that it's a good and workable idea. Perhaps as an illustrative example, maybe... with some strong correlations to contemporary society proven, and proof that the author used forward looking analysis rather than creative writing, maybe... and with information and analysis from real life as proof... maybe... still pretty flimsy... a very thin illustrative example... almost... not really... better be a lot more than that in the essay...

                          Now, I'm going to say that group marriages and group sex work out great with no complications, that it's ok to have sex with your mother, and that we should eat our freinds when they die... 'cause it worked in Hienlein's books.
                          Last edited by Duncan; 18 Feb 07, 00:58.

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                          • #28
                            Tell me how does it feel to go through life always looking at the glass as half empty? It must be very depressing to look at everything with the expectation that it is going to be bad.
                            Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedy. -- Ernest Benn

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Duncan View Post
                              Which is another example of why Heinlien's work of utopian fiction is not an appropriate framework for our current society and should not be used as a model for democracy in the real world.
                              I don’t think anyone was saying that we were simply saying that the book is infinitely better then the movie.
                              Last edited by Tsar; 18 Feb 07, 02:30.
                              Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedy. -- Ernest Benn

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by tsar View Post
                                I don’t think anyone was saying that we were simply saying that the book is infinitely better then the movie.
                                Excellent book.
                                Silly, but fun movie.

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