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  • #46
    Originally posted by Mad Cow
    Did that war have any 'war' in it?
    I seem to recall flying over what was left of three Republican Guard heavy divisions a few hours after they were virtually annihilated by the US Army's VII Corps. I also flew up to Kuwait the day after it was liberated by the Tiger Brigade and the US Marines, and there were plenty of Iraqi vehicles that had been destroyed by US ground forces. My helicopter was part of the initial wave of the XVIII Airborne Corps forces that seized FOB Cobra, destroyed the light Iraqi forces in the area, and blocked the enemy from withdrawing through our sector.

    I have said this before and I will say it again: don't dismiss the Iraqis of that war as cowards and incompetent fools who were incapable of waging war. Despite an almost complete lack of radio communication (because we were jamming their frequencies and targeting their commo assets), the loss of all of their forward reconnaissance units, zero strategic reconnaissance assets, and having to operate under murderous coalition air domination, the Iraqis still managed to reorient and redeploy and entire mechanized corps to meet VII Corps's attack into their flank. No small feat. Their training and weapons system technology were both vastly inferior to ours, and they paid dearly for both of those shortcomings. Nevertheless, they did make a fairly respectable attempt to stand and fight against us, though they were not able to inflict very many KIA's on coalition forces. The massive waves of surrenders mostly came from the Iraqi regular army units that were deployed to the south of the Republican Guard forces. For the most part, the RGF did not begin to see large scale surrenders until after they had been soundly beaten in battle.

    Both Franks and Schwarzkopf have acknowledged that it was a mistake to keep the media out of the conflict, as virtually no visual records exist of some of the most intense and large scale armored engagements fought since WWII. Though they ended with entirely lopsided results, these battles were much larger than those fought during Iraqi Freedom.

    I had the honor of flying the deputy corps commander wherever he needed to go during the battle, and this included a trip right over VII Corps main axis of advance. What a sight that was. Unfortunately, my camera seized up due to the dust (I didn’t have much time for taking pictures anyway) and the only photos that came out were of a few destroyed T-62's near FOB Cobra, and a Mi-24 Hind helicopter. I really wish I had some photos of what that battlefield looked like. Take my word for it: there was plenty of fighting in that four day period.

    This Jarhead movie apparently attempts to denigrate the US Marines as a bunch of socially challenged misfits, who never really do a whole lot of anything but sit around and curse. While that might be accurate in individual cases, it is hardly representative of the average marine's experience in this conflict. The US Marine Corps performed admirably, and did a fine job of seizing every objective they were assigned. How about a movie showing that?
    Editor-in-Chief
    GameSquad.com

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    • #47
      I havent sen it but my current helper who has served in Iraq said it was dull and sucked.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Don Maddox
        I seem to recall flying over what was left of three Republican Guard heavy divisions a few hours after they were virtually annihilated by the US Army's VII Corps. I also flew up to Kuwait the day after it was liberated by the Tiger Brigade and the US Marines, and there were plenty of Iraqi vehicles that had been destroyed by US ground forces. My helicopter was part of the initial wave of the XVIII Airborne Corps forces that seized FOB Cobra, destroyed the light Iraqi forces in the area, and blocked the enemy from withdrawing through our sector.

        I have said this before and I will say it again: don't dismiss the Iraqis of that war as cowards and incompetent fools who were incapable of waging war. Despite an almost complete lack of radio communication (because we were jamming their frequencies and targeting their commo assets), the loss of all of their forward reconnaissance units, zero strategic reconnaissance assets, and having to operate under murderous coalition air domination, the Iraqis still managed to reorient and redeploy and entire mechanized corps to meet VII Corps's attack into their flank. No small feat. Their training and weapons system technology were both vastly inferior to ours, and they paid dearly for both of those shortcomings. Nevertheless, they did make a fairly respectable attempt to stand and fight against us, though they were not able to inflict very many KIA's on coalition forces. The massive waves of surrenders mostly came from the Iraqi regular army units that were deployed to the south of the Republican Guard forces. For the most part, the RGF did not begin to see large scale surrenders until after they had been soundly beaten in battle.

        Both Franks and Schwarzkopf have acknowledged that it was a mistake to keep the media out of the conflict, as virtually no visual records exist of some of the most intense and large scale armored engagements fought since WWII. Though they ended with entirely lopsided results, these battles were much larger than those fought during Iraqi Freedom.

        I had the honor of flying the deputy corps commander wherever he needed to go during the battle, and this included a trip right over VII Corps main axis of advance. What a sight that was. Unfortunately, my camera seized up due to the dust (I didn’t have much time for taking pictures anyway) and the only photos that came out were of a few destroyed T-62's near FOB Cobra, and a Mi-24 Hind helicopter. I really wish I had some photos of what that battlefield looked like. Take my word for it: there was plenty of fighting in that four day period.

        This Jarhead movie apparently attempts to denigrate the US Marines as a bunch of socially challenged misfits, who never really do a whole lot of anything but sit around and curse. While that might be accurate in individual cases, it is hardly representative of the average marine's experience in this conflict. The US Marine Corps performed admirably, and did a fine job of seizing every objective they were assigned. How about a movie showing that?
        Cheers.

        Mad Cow's Steakhouse & Doggie's Cheatin' Heart Saloon and Cigar Emporium

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Mad Cow
          Did that war have any 'war' in it?
          Look up the Battle of 73 Easting, the Battle of Medina Ridge, or the Battle of Al Busayyah. You may be surprised.
          AHIKS - Play by (E)mail board wargaming since 1965.
          The Blitz - Play by Email computer wargaming.

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          • #50
            The best history I have seen on the battles of Desert Storm is Jayhawk, although it only deals with VII Corps' operations. Into the Storm is also a useful reference, but again it deals mostly with VII Corps. Many of the other books on Desert Storm either cover the air campaign, or deal with the entire war at a strategic level and may not have enough detail for those interested in the overall ground campaign.

            On a related note, I have not cared for any of the books I have read so far on Iraqi Freedom. Most of them are attempting to be some type of "first person account" of the fighting at the battalion level or below. Lot's of personal stories and tales of individual squads and platoons. I have not seen a single book yet that covers Iraqi Freedom the way Jayhawk covers portions of Desert Storm. Too much political mumbo jumbo and not enough hardcore military history. Thunder Run is an interesting read, but it has a very narrow focus and is not really suitable as a reference work.
            Editor-in-Chief
            GameSquad.com

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Don Maddox
              The best history I have seen on the battles of Desert Storm is Jayhawk, although it only deals with VII Corps' operations. Into the Storm is also a useful reference, but again it deals mostly with VII Corps. Many of the other books on Desert Storm either cover the air campaign, or deal with the entire war at a strategic level and may not have enough detail for those interested in the overall ground campaign.

              On a related note, I have not cared for any of the books I have read so far on Iraqi Freedom. Most of them are attempting to be some type of "first person account" of the fighting at the battalion level or below. Lot's of personal stories and tales of individual squads and platoons. I have not seen a single book yet that covers Iraqi Freedom the way Jayhawk covers portions of Desert Storm. Too much political mumbo jumbo and not enough hardcore military history. Thunder Run is an interesting read, but it has a very narrow focus and is not really suitable as a reference work.
              Tom Clancy and Fred Frank's Into the Storm is not bad.
              AHIKS - Play by (E)mail board wargaming since 1965.
              The Blitz - Play by Email computer wargaming.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Don Maddox
                This Jarhead movie apparently attempts to denigrate the US Marines as a bunch of socially challenged misfits, who never really do a whole lot of anything but sit around and curse. While that might be accurate in individual cases, it is hardly representative of the average marine's experience in this conflict. The US Marine Corps performed admirably, and did a fine job of seizing every objective they were assigned. How about a movie showing that?
                Coming to this a bit late, but . . .

                I had a different take on the film. For one thing, Chas Argent's comments about its level of irony (upstream) are very much to the point. I was especially interested in the depiction of the foot soldier as obsolete in an era of high-tech jet propelled war. As one of the Marines says, "by the time your rifle is sighted the war will be ten miles down the road."

                In the film the US Air Force is presented as being as much of an enemy as the Iraqis. The only time the Marines are actually attacked it's by a pair of strafing A-10s (friendly fire); likewise, the carnage of a wrecked Iraqi convoy is the work of the Air Force, but while the pilots are back in their air conditioned bunks it's the foot soldier who has to stand face to face with the consequences.

                The epitome of all this is the scene where a Marine sniper team is about to shoot two Iraqi officers. This is the moment for which they've been trained. They had been sent to kill them on the theory that the enemy unit could become demoralized and surrender en masse, thereby avoiding a bloodbath (this is explicitly stated in the film). But they're denied the opportunity to "take the shot," and instead the ground attack fighters (once again) come in and wipe out the entire Iraqi encampment. I took all this as a kind of acknowledgement of the import of the "marine and his rifle" rhetoric that pervades the film: in this instance the Marines' way would have been cleaner and more humane than the Air Force's laser-guided bombs and "precision" strikes. Rather than derogatory or celebratory, I found the film ambivalent about the Corps; I think it resists easy identification with any one particular political or moral stance.
                Last edited by mkirschenbaum; 27 Nov 05, 19:48. Reason: formatting quirks

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Don Maddox

                  On a related note, I have not cared for any of the books I have read so far on Iraqi Freedom. Most of them are attempting to be some type of "first person account" of the fighting at the battalion level or below. Lot's of personal stories and tales of individual squads and platoons. I have not seen a single book yet that covers Iraqi Freedom the way Jayhawk covers portions of Desert Storm. Too much political mumbo jumbo and not enough hardcore military history. Thunder Run is an interesting read, but it has a very narrow focus and is not really suitable as a reference work.
                  The March Up is still the best on OIF I've read, aside from On Point. Generation Kill was passable - but probably will invoke too many knee-jerk reactions to see the forest for the trees

                  but I definately recommend The March Up by Maj. Gen. Ray Smith and Bing West. Concentrates pretty much solely on the 1st MarDiv, but well worth the read.
                  Now listening too;
                  - Russell Robertson, ruining whatever credibility my football team once had.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Ivan Rapkinov
                    The March Up is still the best on OIF I've read, aside from On Point. Generation Kill was passable - but probably will invoke too many knee-jerk reactions to see the forest for the trees.
                    I didn't find much use for Generation Kill. It's exactly the type of work I spoke about earlier. I have seen The March Up, but have not read that one yet.
                    Editor-in-Chief
                    GameSquad.com

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Don Maddox
                      I didn't find much use for Generation Kill. It's exactly the type of work I spoke about earlier. I have seen The March Up, but have not read that one yet.
                      "The Iraq War" by John Keegan is an overall look at OIF.
                      Publisher
                      Armchair General Magazine
                      Weider History Group

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Don Maddox
                        I didn't find much use for Generation Kill. It's exactly the type of work I spoke about earlier. I have seen The March Up, but have not read that one yet.
                        well, Generation did have info on overall movements, but sifting through the monologues and anti-establishment stuff did get rather tiresome. There is some good info there, but you really have to dig for it.

                        the March Up is told from both low level, and higher level.
                        Now listening too;
                        - Russell Robertson, ruining whatever credibility my football team once had.

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                        • #57
                          I don't want books the cover "the war," or that are mostly about the politics surrounding the war. Nor am I looking for a bunch of crap that purports to put me "in the mind of the US fighting soldier." Worthless mush. I want hardcore military history.

                          The politics of this war have so infected society that it's nearly impossible to simply get basic information on what happened and how it happened. Of course I already know the important stuff because I still remember it! But it would be handly for me to have a detailed work with top-notch maps that I can use as a reference. There are a number of these available for Desert Storm, but not for OIF.
                          Editor-in-Chief
                          GameSquad.com

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                          • #58
                            try The March Up - I think you'll like that one.

                            Has a complete OOB for the 1MARDIV, has regrettably only one map that follows the divisions advance with magnified Baghdad, and has an introduction by John Keegan, to give you an idea of those the book is targetted at.
                            Now listening too;
                            - Russell Robertson, ruining whatever credibility my football team once had.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Ivan Rapkinov
                              try The March Up - I think you'll like that one.

                              Has a complete OOB for the 1MARDIV, has regrettably only one map that follows the divisions advance with magnified Baghdad, and has an introduction by John Keegan, to give you an idea of those the book is targetted at.
                              Okay, I will give that one a try. Thanks.
                              Editor-in-Chief
                              GameSquad.com

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