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  • #16
    Not exactly, the slouch hat was used well before on in the west and beyond. Bowlers came later and were a dress hat and not practical for most working men.

    Originally posted by Tuck's Luck View Post
    Well it seems this is correct. Who knew?



    "The cowboy hat evolved from the Mexican Sombrero and wasn't introduced until 1865 - manufactured by John B. Stetson.

    Meanwhile the bowler (also known as the Derby hat) was "the hat" in Europe and many immigrants arrived on American shores wearing one. Bowlers/Derby were worn by both outlaws and lawmen including Bat Masterton, Butch Cassidy, Black Bart and Billy the Kid.

    The Stetson hat cost 4 to 5 times as much to produce as the felt Bowler - hence their slowness to catch on. It offered more protection from wind, rain and sun which led many cowboys to transition over - when they had the money!"


    https://legendsplay.wordpress.com/20...-the-old-west/

    That's what I love about ACG - you learn summat new every day!!

    My worst jump story:
    My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
    As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
    No lie.

    ~
    "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
    -2 Commando Jumpmaster

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    • #17
      Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post
      Not exactly, the slouch hat was used well before on in the west and beyond. Bowlers came later and were a dress hat and not practical for most working men.
      I'm not arguing with you about what was worn earlier ... but certainly from the mid 1800s ...

      "It was the Derby/bowler, not the cowboy hat or sombrero, was the most popular hat in the American West. It was so common in fact that Lucius Beebe to call it “the hat that won the West”. When you see old west photos of town’s people, shop keepers, bar tenders and the like, almost all of them wore derbies. Many cowboys purchased derby’s when they came to town because they were easily available and the hat would not blow off easily in strong wind. It did not provide the same level of protection from wind or rain, and definitely did not protect you from the sun – which led many cowboys to transition to Stetson “Boss of the plains” style hat when they had the money."

      And bowlers or Derbys were most certainly not 'dress hats'! Pretty much everyone wore them - railroad workers, shop keepers - they were cheap and practical because they stayed on.

      And according to this other article the slouch comes in 4th:

      http://cap-n-ball.com/hats.htm
      "COOMMAAAAAAANNNNDOOOO!!!!!"
      - Mad Jack Churchill.

      Comment


      • #18


        Not one Derby in sight. This is a photo from some 49er's.

        http://www.findgoldprospecting.com/g...anning-photos/
        "Ask not what your country can do for you"

        Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

        you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post


          Not one Derby in sight. This is a photo from some 49er's.

          http://www.findgoldprospecting.com/g...anning-photos/
          And given that these are 49ers and the bowler was not produced in London, let alone the USA until 1849 you wouldn't expect there to be any! Not unless one of them was a Mr McFly with a Delorean parked around the corner
          Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
          Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post


            Not one Derby in sight. This is a photo from some 49er's.

            http://www.findgoldprospecting.com/g...anning-photos/
            Nothing surprising in that pic. The bowler was only designed in 1849 and production didn't get going until the 1850s so it hardly had time to cross the Atlantic when this pic was taken.

            Prior to then, and the arrival of the Stetson in 1965 - then I'm sure 'slouch hats and derivations of them were worn by pretty much everyone.

            I don't think anything written about hats in this thread by anyone is wrong. However, with the arrival of the Bowler in the mid 1800s - it was the hat of choice for most by all accounts.

            I have no axe to grind in this. I knew nothing about it until I read Gooner's post and went and checked it out - and it did check out! Source after source tells you that it was the Bowler or Derby as it was known in America that ruled - for a while anyway.

            As I think of the era of classic Western films as being late 19th century - that's the era I was thinking of - not earlier.

            This indigenous American art form focuses on the frontier West that existed in North America. Westerns are often set on the American frontier during the last part of the 19th century (1865-1900) following the Civil War, in a geographically western (trans-Mississippi) setting with romantic, sweeping frontier landscapes or rugged rural terrain. However, Westerns may extend back to the time of America's colonial period or forward to the mid-20th century, or as far geographically as Mexico. A number of westerns use the Civil War, the Battle of the Alamo (1836) or the Mexican Revolution (1910) as a backdrop.

            http://www.filmsite.org/westernfilms.html

            Part 2 THE BOWLER CROSSES THE OCEAN

            In 1840 a felt making machine was invented in the U.S. It took about 18 years before England started using the machines. Felt makers in England, fearful of losing their jobs, fought the introduction of the machines. This reduced the price of felt and hats became less expensive and more plentiful. It spurred hat makers to make felt hats in all styles to meet a growing demand from the public. Felt had only been able to be made by hand before the machine was invented.

            In the U.S. the bowler was usually called “the derby”. The bowler became popular after Americans saw pictures of the Earl of Derby, at the horse races in England, wearing a light grey bowler with a black band.

            The Wild West

            Everywhere on the east coast the bowler was ubiquitous. East coast tours to visit the west were popular and tourists wearing bowlers were noticed by the locals. Soon the bowler began to be seen on western heads.

            If you thought the cowboy hat or the sombrero were the most popular hats in Western America—think again. It was the bowler.

            http://www.thehathouse.net/2013/07/t...derby-hat.html

            And there are plenty more articles like that. They can't all be wrong surely?

            "COOMMAAAAAAANNNNDOOOO!!!!!"
            - Mad Jack Churchill.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
              My thoughts:


              Characters: Characters may be flat or have depth. But you will see a minimum of a Hero or Anti-Hero (or both), a Victim or Affected Party, and a Villain. Also, your hero or anti-hero should not be Cavalry functioning as a member of the Army (that makes it a Military Movie), or otherwise operating with excessive means.....a hero or anti-hero must accomplish much or all of their deeds through grit, skill, luck, and a bit of sarcastic banter.

              .
              No Cavalry!!!! Oh no, you have just eliminated two of John Ford's classics "Fort Apache" and "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon" .
              "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" Beatrice Evelyn Hall
              Updated for the 21st century... except if you are criticizing islam, that scares the $hii+e out of me!

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              • #22
                Wow, I'd say this just about covers it!

                Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
                My thoughts:

                Setting: A Western Must be set in the Frontier. The American West is most predominant, but based on time period I think that other frontiers could work. The Frontier itself is a character, a main character, and provides both a backdrop and a foe to be conquered or endured. In fact, the Frontier might be more of a foe than the actual Villain....for example Hidalgo's Arabian Desert is really the biggest obstacle, the villains are quite flat and pretty incompetent.

                Action: A Western Will have Gunplay. More, less, that'll vary. And I think that the guns can vary as well based on time period. But a Western must have gun play.

                Characters: Characters may be flat or have depth. But you will see a minimum of a Hero or Anti-Hero (or both), a Victim or Affected Party, and a Villain. Also, your hero or anti-hero should not be Cavalry functioning as a member of the Army (that makes it a Military Movie), or otherwise operating with excessive means.....a hero or anti-hero must accomplish much or all of their deeds through grit, skill, luck, and a bit of sarcastic banter.

                Style: A Western might explore many different themes, but on a base level it is a morality play with a purported good guy, a purported bad guy, and the bad guy receiving some form of commuppence in the end. Traditionally the good guy settles down or rides off into the sunset, but the good guy might also heroically or tragically die or meet another end.

                To see two VERY different examples of Westerns, ironically from the guy who played literally the same character in every movie, look at Big Jake and McLintock. The former is a very bloody affair with defined villains, heroes, and anti-heroes. Lots of people die, including most side characters and even a couple that might be considered main characters. The latter is a far more lighthearted romp where the gunplay is at an absolute minimum, no one dies, and it's practically a Western take on the RomCom.

                I would say that some 'space westerns' meet the criteria for westerns. For example, I personally consider "Firefly" to be a "Western Series", as it's about anti-heroes on the frontier exploring various morality related things and various villains from bandits to the government (the space version of Indian Agents) get their just desserts. I don't tie Westerns to the requirement of time period from the early revolvers on up to the advent of automobiles and modern weapons. I think Westerns can run the gamut from Flintlocks to Lasers, given that there are guns involved of some sort and the other requirements are met. Pre-firearm IMHO isn't a 'Western' (at least one party must have firearms and the other criteria met, obviously Natives might not have guns).....pre-firearm would be more of an 'epic' or 'saga' in the old style.
                Great job!

                Geography-wise, you could have a "western" in the South Pacific or Siberia, but the timing does matter. I'd say it starts with Daniel Boone and ends with "No country for old men" ... and we won't get another era like that until Space opens up for normal people.
                Or.... as close to normal as Westerners ever get.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Nope - no "Westerns" in the South Pacific or elsewhere. See previous commentary on Quigley Down Under.

                  It's a "Western" because it is set in the American West during the Westward Expansion, period. The rest, like Firefly, are merely rip-offs and "pseudo-westerns" not worthy of the name. Firefly, in fact, is sci-fi, just as films like Westworld are. At best, they have a Western "nuance".

                  Although the Western environment figures heavily into the cinematics, it is not, as suggested, always the "foe". It is most frequently the backdrop for the film and action, and the reason why the film proceeds as it does. Can't rob a Western railroad if you aren't out west. Can't rustle cattle if you're not out west. Can't have a war between ranchers and open-range cattlemen if you're not out west, can't have a cattle drive, period, if you're not out west, and definitely not going to step out into the street and shot it out if you're not in the west, and so forth and so on.

                  The landscape sets the mood and enhances scenes, but it is only the enemy in films such as Revenant and similar survival tales.

                  Two more worthy candidates for Best Westerns:
                  Mountain Men
                  Jeremiah Johnson
                  Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
                    One I think is excellent is Open Range.
                    I wasn't familiar with the movie so looked it up on Wiki. That article provided a definition which could be added to this discussion...

                    "These characters don't seek violence... But the notion that it's sometimes necessary... is the Western's most fundamental ideal."

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Canuckster View Post
                      I wasn't familiar with the movie so looked it up on Wiki. That article provided a definition which could be added to this discussion...

                      "These characters don't seek violence... But the notion that it's sometimes necessary... is the Western's most fundamental ideal."
                      Open Range was good, but wasn't it made for television? Because that opens the door to an outstanding series such as Lonesome Dove.


                      BTW: there have also been some exceptional Western Musicals, among them Paint Your Wagon.


                      Here's another good one in which there are no heroes, merely varying shades of bad and good: Appaloosa
                      Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Canuckster View Post
                        I wasn't familiar with the movie so looked it up on Wiki. That article provided a definition which could be added to this discussion...

                        "These characters don't seek violence... But the notion that it's sometimes necessary... is the Western's most fundamental ideal."
                        Such as demonstrated in Shane.
                        Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          Such as demonstrated in Shane.
                          Or Liberty Valence
                          "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                          Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                          you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            Open Range was good, but wasn't it made for television? Because that opens the door to an outstanding series such as Lonesome Dove.


                            BTW: there have also been some exceptional Western Musicals, among them Paint Your Wagon.


                            Here's another good one in which there are no heroes, merely varying shades of bad and good: Appaloosa


                            From Paint your wagon.
                            "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                            Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                            you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
                              Western as on the western frontier.

                              Opinions on films such as Mohawk Trail and LotM. Are they Westerns as well, iyo
                              The Magnificent 7 is set in Mexico but I would regard that as a Western. There have been Westerns set in Canada as well. I would say that they have to be set in the later half of c19th up till 1914.
                              "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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                              • #30
                                To paraphrase the Supreme Court - A Western is like porn, I know it when I see it. But seriously, I think it needs to be set in the American West in the 19th Century.

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