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  • Arnold J Rimmer
    replied
    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    Speaking of Janet Reno... She was a terrible prosecutor. All her child molesting cases in Florida got eventually overturned because she used "regressed memories" and other BS means of extracting evidence. Ruined a lot of people's lives that were innocent, but made a name for herself. As Attorney General she was way in over her head and the incompetence showed.

    But, given the way the Clintons operate, I'd suspect they chose her because she was incompetent. It meant they were relatively safe from her sticking her nose into their criminal activities.
    Wasn't she a severe alcoholic? Or am I thinking of a different Clinton appointee?

    Yeah, she built her career on marginal approaches rammed home with overkill. Which was reflected in the operations of her agency.

    Leave a comment:


  • T. A. Gardner
    replied
    Speaking of Janet Reno... She was a terrible prosecutor. All her child molesting cases in Florida got eventually overturned because she used "regressed memories" and other BS means of extracting evidence. Ruined a lot of people's lives that were innocent, but made a name for herself. As Attorney General she was way in over her head and the incompetence showed.

    But, given the way the Clintons operate, I'd suspect they chose her because she was incompetent. It meant they were relatively safe from her sticking her nose into their criminal activities.

    Leave a comment:


  • Arnold J Rimmer
    replied
    Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
    The ATF tried at Ruby Ridge to assault a cabin and ended up killing a woman holding a baby. THAT tells me the Sniper was poorly trained.

    Pruitt
    The sniper was highly trained. What happened was that the Feds changed to rules of engagement to green light any male outside the cabin.

    She was hit by a round that went through a male and struck her in the head as she was holding open the door for their retreat.

    The sniper never saw her.

    Back in those days, unlike State and local LE agencies, the Feds made their own rules of force. Even today theirs are different from ours, but they are at least generally standardized; back then the SCA set the rules.

    Leave a comment:


  • Arnold J Rimmer
    replied
    Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
    I agree the assault failed but it was not for lack of training. It was because the assault was faulty tactics. Koresh went to town often and they could have taken him there. The ATF tried at Ruby Ridge to assault a cabin and ended up killing a woman holding a baby. THAT tells me the Sniper was poorly trained.

    Pruitt
    Well, the ATF agents that stormed the compound were largely strangers to each other, with less than eight hours' preparation. They lacked radios (on the same frequencies), medical support of any kind, and the SAC got personally involved in the shoot-out and failed to exert any control once the fight started.

    Under the circumstances I think they did exceedingly well: they nearly cleared the upper floor, and withdrawing under fire they brought all their people out. They also avoided hitting any of the kids, which was nothing short of a miracle.

    Given better commo, active leadership, and medical support they may well have carried the day, but the entire premise was flawed: storming a survivalist compound, even with surprise, is the equivalent of a land war in Asia: avoid at all costs. Especially when, as in this case, they knew so little about the cult's beliefs.

    It was pure political drama. But it was typical of Reno's DoJ: she hated on guns and white supremacists, and played the Feds off against each other.

    LE agencies competing is a very touchy thing. A tiny amount is OK and natural, but it can get horribly out of control fast.

    IMO the blame for Ruby Ridge and Waco land squarely on the AG, and her boss, Slick Willie.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pruitt
    replied
    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    The "assault team" was repulsed because they were untrained idiots and trying to use brute force where finesse should have been tried first. What was wrong with trying to serve the warrant first by knocking on the door?

    Why did the ATF try a flashy SWAT-style raid and make sure the media was invited to watch?
    I agree the assault failed but it was not for lack of training. It was because the assault was faulty tactics. Koresh went to town often and they could have taken him there. The ATF tried at Ruby Ridge to assault a cabin and ended up killing a woman holding a baby. THAT tells me the Sniper was poorly trained.

    Pruitt

    Leave a comment:


  • Arnold J Rimmer
    replied
    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    Why did the ATF try a flashy SWAT-style raid and make sure the media was invited to watch?
    If you watched the show...

    The ATF was under fire in Congress for the [email protected] that was Ruby Ridge, another of their brilliant ops. The US Marshals were hating on them big-time for getting one of their people killed, and the FBI was making noises that they could absorb the ATF mission, no sweat.

    So they needed a high-profile win, and the Branch Dividians were textbook: endangered children, child brides, unlawful firearms, all in a state where juries are inclined to hang 'em high.

    So they send in the most utterly unprepared undercover op (all their vehicles were registered out of a long-compromised Federal shell company out of Houston, just for one example).

    The op simply alerted the BD.

    As things started to fall apart the ATF SAC dragged in every ATF agent around and launched the assault. They rushed in even though the undercover team warned the SCA that the BD had figured out they were coming.

    They still wanted to salvage a win.

    Ironically, they actually had secured to upper floor of the house and were poised to win, but in his rush to engage the SCA had failed to provide for adequate tactical communications or any strategic communications, and had failed to make any provision for medical treatment, either on-site or on-call.

    So they had to pull back out in order to get their wounded clear; the BD had taken a substantial beating as well, and were happy to disengage.

    But back to your question: the ATF needed a win. They could have picked up Korresh any time during his frequent runs to Dairy Queen (he had a terrible sweet tooth) or after one of his gigs at various bars. But they needed a win to save them from the fallout of Ruby Ridge.

    Now the show has entered the next phase, as the FBI confidently takes over, sure it can replicate it's win at Ruby Ridge by ending their siege quickly and cleanly.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Doctor
    replied
    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    The "assault team" was repulsed because they were untrained idiots and trying to use brute force where finesse should have been tried first. What was wrong with trying to serve the warrant first by knocking on the door?

    Why did the ATF try a flashy SWAT-style raid and make sure the media was invited to watch?
    They could have arrested Koresh any time they wanted to. He frequently went into town. BATF was worried about budget cuts and wanted to put on a "show"... The show killed 4 BATF agents and about 80 mostly innocent prople.

    Leave a comment:


  • T. A. Gardner
    replied
    Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
    Did they get to the point where the assault team is repulsed? I knew the two brothers of the first guy killed. He was a Lebleu. His Father was my Dad's lawyer.

    Pruitt
    The "assault team" was repulsed because they were untrained idiots and trying to use brute force where finesse should have been tried first. What was wrong with trying to serve the warrant first by knocking on the door?

    Why did the ATF try a flashy SWAT-style raid and make sure the media was invited to watch?

    Leave a comment:


  • The Doctor
    replied
    Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
    I'm watching it with great interest. It is based on two excellent books on the subject.

    I particularly like the way they are depicting the motivations of the various agencies, and of the FBI's very poor critical command staff structure of the period.

    The negotiator and the Direct Action Unit (or whatever title the assault team has) should be subordinate to a single Action leader, and they should be standing in each other's pockets. Instead, as actually happened, they are two separate entities with differing agendas.

    I like their depiction of Koresh, too: he chugs along looking like a decent guy...and then the cult leader pops out.

    My agency was invited to send our tactical team (of which I was a member) out there during the siege to perform various tasks, but the Chief declined, much to our gratitude. While it would have been of great interest to get close to the operation, and being Federal there would be no repercussions no matter what, we saw nothing good coming out of it.

    We built a scale model on the compound and surrounding areas and spent countless hours war-gaming a resolution.

    Unless the people surrendered outright, it never ended well.


    Taylor Kitch as Koresh and Michael Shannon as FBI negotiator Gary Neumeyer are really good. They were also the Executive Producers.

    I just finished watching episode 3... It seems to be a very good historical depiction.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pirateship1982
    replied
    Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
    Did they get to the point where the assault team is repulsed? I knew the two brothers of the first guy killed. He was a Lebleu. His Father was my Dad's lawyer.

    Pruitt
    Yeah that segment just played.

    Leave a comment:


  • T. A. Gardner
    replied
    Originally posted by Pirateship1982 View Post
    I hadn't realized those two events connected until I saw documentary footage talking about it.

    Overall it's been an informative view and having eyewitness testimonies to line up with the Hollywood version helped.
    I remember that Reno and the DoJ went after a bunch of "militia" groups, most of whom were playing "Army" in the woods sorts. Here in Arizona they got some smuck that had been a legal munitions manufacturer and then went out of business. They found a large shed on his private property full of left over chemicals from his business and charged him with making explosives, etc., even thought the stuff wasn't explosives and mostly crap quality.
    Or the air-conditioning contractor and his buddies that went out in the desert to shoot guns and stuff like that. They called themselves a militia. Arrested the bunch and the contractor had a large gun collection. The charges were later tossed but it took him like two years and lots of lawsuits to get most of his guns back.
    Saw a story about some trailer trash in Missouri (?), well somewhere in the mid-west, who went out in the woods and did "military" style training. Same thing. Feds showed up looking for a reason they could be arrested.

    McVey and Nichols saw this going on and decided they had to fight back. So, they did.

    If you recall, the SPLC started getting in the news when Obama was first elected by saying there was a major rise in Right wing militia activity immediately afterwards, just as they did with Clinton. At least the Obama administration didn't go down the Clinton path on that one.

    http://reason.com/blog/2013/03/07/so...er-finds-fewer

    Leave a comment:


  • Pruitt
    replied
    Did they get to the point where the assault team is repulsed? I knew the two brothers of the first guy killed. He was a Lebleu. His Father was my Dad's lawyer.

    Pruitt

    Leave a comment:


  • Pirateship1982
    replied
    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    It should never have happened to begin with. The ATF wanted headlines rather than doing their job low key and sensibly. That got a lot of people killed and the ATF in particular looked really stupid.

    Of course, this was all due to Clinton's and by extension Reno's one-sided decision to essentially go to war with Right leaning "militia" groups, egged on by the SPLC among others, and it ended up making the administration look like vicious bumbling idiots and got them Timothy McVey and company and the Oklahoma bombing.
    I hadn't realized those two events connected until I saw documentary footage talking about it.

    Overall it's been an informative view and having eyewitness testimonies to line up with the Hollywood version helped.

    Leave a comment:


  • T. A. Gardner
    replied
    It should never have happened to begin with. The ATF wanted headlines rather than doing their job low key and sensibly. That got a lot of people killed and the ATF in particular looked really stupid.

    Of course, this was all due to Clinton's and by extension Reno's one-sided decision to essentially go to war with Right leaning "militia" groups, egged on by the SPLC among others, and it ended up making the administration look like vicious bumbling idiots and got them Timothy McVey and company and the Oklahoma bombing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Arnold J Rimmer
    replied
    I'm watching it with great interest. It is based on two excellent books on the subject.

    I particularly like the way they are depicting the motivations of the various agencies, and of the FBI's very poor critical command staff structure of the period.

    The negotiator and the Direct Action Unit (or whatever title the assault team has) should be subordinate to a single Action leader, and they should be standing in each other's pockets. Instead, as actually happened, they are two separate entities with differing agendas.

    I like their depiction of Koresh, too: he chugs along looking like a decent guy...and then the cult leader pops out.

    My agency was invited to send our tactical team (of which I was a member) out there during the siege to perform various tasks, but the Chief declined, much to our gratitude. While it would have been of great interest to get close to the operation, and being Federal there would be no repercussions no matter what, we saw nothing good coming out of it.

    We built a scale model on the compound and surrounding areas and spent countless hours war-gaming a resolution.

    Unless the people surrendered outright, it never ended well.

    Leave a comment:

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