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Japanese Top Gun with Zeros

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  • Japanese Top Gun with Zeros

    This is how the Japanese make WWII air combat movies.


    "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
    --Frederick II, King of Prussia

  • #2
    Zeroes vs. P-51s?
    Not Ki-100s, not 84s, but Zeroes?

    Well, I guess they had to go with something that has name-recognition, but still...

    Okay, the CGI looked great, and at least Japan is finally making movies that acknowledge that WW2 actually happened, that's a step forward.

    But from a technical standpoint;
    50-cal slugs won't go "ping ping" when they hit, it would be more like "WHACK WHACK" even if they didn't hit anything vital, and it looks like a couple of them did.

    I know the P-51 was maneuverable, but getting into a low & slow dogfight with Zeros was pointless and really just asking to get picked off.
    And, that guy was, so I guess that's realistic.

    But those Americans must have been as green new-mown grass. Wingman, wingman? They had the speed to fire a burst, blow right by and come around to nail them again. And the Zeroes could have ducked into the clouds, as the instructor had many chances to do.

    And that young chap managed to be the one that survived a collision with the Mustang, in a Zero.
    I'd love to hear how they explained that one.

    Overall, not bad, makes me wonder what the rest of the movie looks like.
    "Why is the Rum gone?"

    -Captain Jack

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    • #3
      An ounce of lead doesn't "ping".
      Hyperwar: World War II on the World Wide Web
      Hyperwar, Whats New
      World War II Resources
      The best place in the world to "work".

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      • #4
        Saburo Sakai talks in his book about a Japanese Pilot that slept in a ***** House and flew Zeroes against B-29's! While Sakai flew Shidens and Raidens, Akamatsu preferred Zeroes! He also shot down at least ten Hellcats and Mustangs!

        Pruitt
        Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

        Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

        by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
          Zeroes vs. P-51s?
          Not Ki-100s, not 84s, but Zeroes?

          Well, I guess they had to go with something that has name-recognition, but still...

          Okay, the CGI looked great, and at least Japan is finally making movies that acknowledge that WW2 actually happened, that's a step forward.

          But from a technical standpoint;
          50-cal slugs won't go "ping ping" when they hit, it would be more like "WHACK WHACK" even if they didn't hit anything vital, and it looks like a couple of them did.

          I know the P-51 was maneuverable, but getting into a low & slow dogfight with Zeros was pointless and really just asking to get picked off.
          And, that guy was, so I guess that's realistic.

          But those Americans must have been as green new-mown grass. Wingman, wingman? They had the speed to fire a burst, blow right by and come around to nail them again. And the Zeroes could have ducked into the clouds, as the instructor had many chances to do.

          And that young chap managed to be the one that survived a collision with the Mustang, in a Zero.
          I'd love to hear how they explained that one.

          Overall, not bad, makes me wonder what the rest of the movie looks like.
          The Japanese flew late-variant Zero fighters until the last day of the war. As far as I know, late variants were evolutionary improvements with stronger engines, but it was still basically the same aircraft as flown in 1941. Outdated compared to Hellcat or P-51 but probably not as hopeless as the Polish 1930s planes vs. Luftwaffe in 1939. Pappy Boyington was shot down by Zeros and he was 1) an ace 2) he was flying a Corsair.

          "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
          --Frederick II, King of Prussia

          Comment


          • #6
            Another limitation was that Home Island flight instructors were faced with too many students to train them effectively. The urgency of training pilots overwhelmed the curriculum. “We couldn’t watch for individual errors and take the long hours necessary to weed the faults out of a trainee,” Sakai recalled in 1943. “Hardly a day passed when fire engines and ambulances did not race down the runways, sirens shrieking, to dig one or more pilots out of the plane they had wrecked on a clumsy takeoff or landing.” The decision to press for quantity over quality meant that poorly trained fliers graduated to combat units. “We were told to rush men through,” Sakai said, “to forget the fine points, just teach them how to fly and shoot.”
            By the end of 1943, the army and navy had lost about 10,000 pilots. As American Lt. Gen. George C. Kenney reported to Washington, “Japan’s originally highly trained crews were superb but they are dead.” When matched to pilot production of 5,400 army and 5,000 navy in the same period, and when one considers the expansion in units, missions, tempo and geographical separation, it is clear that Japan’s pilot strength had not increased at all. Worse, the vast majority of prewar and even 1942-43 veterans were dead or wounded, and their replacements had none of the veterans’ experience.

            http://www.historynet.com/japans-fat...d-war-ii-2.htm

            They didn't have many good pilots by 1945...
            Credo quia absurdum.


            Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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            • #7
              Sakai also mentioned that the many washouts from training in the old curriculum were lost track of. He mourned that he wished he would have had one for twenty of the new guys in 1944 and 1945. These washouts went back to the Fleet and many were probably dead when their ships were sank. Sakai served on battleships before he won a place as an aviation student trainee.

              Pruitt
              Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

              Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

              by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
                Zeroes vs. P-51s?

                But from a technical standpoint;

                50-cal slugs won't go "ping ping" when they hit, it would be more like "WHACK WHACK" even if they didn't hit anything vital, and it looks like a couple of them did.

                Overall, not bad, makes me wonder what the rest of the movie looks like.
                Cool clip. You are not mixing up the "pings" with the empty cases leaving the P-51 wing...?.......That sounded quite realistic to me.

                A reasonably experienced Japanese pilot flying a Zero would have been on the tail of that Mustang in seconds. Just my opinion. As the clip goes it looks as if the Zero pilot is doing all the wrong things.

                Fred
                Saving MacArthur - a book series - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...ies_rw_dp_labf
                River Wide, Ocean Deep - Operation Sealion - https://www.amazon.com/product-revie...owViewpoints=1

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by leandros View Post
                  Cool clip. You are not mixing up the "pings" with the empty cases leaving the P-51 wing...?.......That sounded quite realistic to me.

                  A reasonably experienced Japanese pilot flying a Zero would have been on the tail of that Mustang in seconds. Just my opinion. As the clip goes it looks as if the Zero pilot is doing all the wrong things.

                  Fred
                  With over a 100mph speed advantage the Mustang would have just flown way.

                  The P 51 was every bit as good as the F6F Hellcat. The Hellcat owned the Zero in just about all aspects of Ariel combat.
                  Last edited by Half Pint John; 22 Jul 16, 08:35.
                  "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                  Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                  you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
                    With over a 100mph speed advantage the Mustang would have just flown way.
                    Sure, and left the field to the Zero........

                    Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
                    The P 51 was every bit as good as the F6F Hellcat. The Hellcat owned the Zero in just about all aspects of Ariel combat.
                    Says who...?

                    Fred
                    Saving MacArthur - a book series - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...ies_rw_dp_labf
                    River Wide, Ocean Deep - Operation Sealion - https://www.amazon.com/product-revie...owViewpoints=1

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by leandros View Post
                      Sure, and left the field to the Zero........



                      Says who...?

                      Fred
                      Just about anybody that has knowledge of WWII in the Pacific.


                      During its service in World War II, the F6F Hellcat became the most successful naval fighter of all time with a total of 5,271 kills. Of these, 5,163 were scored by US Navy and US Marine Corps pilots against a loss of 270 Hellcats. This resulted in a remarkable kill ratio of 19:1. Designed as a "Zero killer," the F6F maintained a kill ratio of 13:1 against the Japanese fighter. A
                      http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/...6f-hellcat.htm
                      "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                      Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                      you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
                        Just about anybody that has knowledge of WWII in the Pacific....
                        Ooh, I should think that is pretty much coloured by late-war numbers and the deteriorating quality of the Japanese pilots. Hellcat pilots were still not advised to try to turn with the Zero. The alternative: Like always, dive away from it. What that means is - everything else being equal:

                        1. As a bomber interceptor you must break off the interception if Zeros are present
                        2. As an escort fighter you must leave those you are supposed to escort if Zeros show up.

                        "The Hellcat owned the Zero in just about all aspects of aerial combat" - that's a pretty stiff proposition. It dived faster with better high-speed roll rate and climbed faster at altitude. This changes as soon as the turning starts. That's about all.

                        Fred

                        http://evanflys.com/zero_vs_hellcat
                        Saving MacArthur - a book series - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...ies_rw_dp_labf
                        River Wide, Ocean Deep - Operation Sealion - https://www.amazon.com/product-revie...owViewpoints=1

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                        • #13
                          USN vs. Yamato




                          Anyone here cheering for the IJN to win?
                          "I am Groot"
                          - Groot

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by leandros View Post
                            A reasonably experienced Japanese pilot flying a Zero would have been on the tail of that Mustang in seconds. Just my opinion. As the clip goes it looks as if the Zero pilot is doing all the wrong things.

                            Fred
                            Yeah, over all it looks pretty good. Like I said, it would be nice to see the rest of the movie.

                            Both pilots made mistakes, and the one who's buddy showed up first made it home.


                            Originally posted by Marmat View Post
                            Anyone here cheering for the IJN to win?
                            Not really. Reading about the operation, all you can say is that it was a terrible waste of that ship.
                            The movie makes you see what a waste of human life it was.
                            "Why is the Rum gone?"

                            -Captain Jack

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Here's the ...

                              Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
                              Not really. Reading about the operation, all you can say is that it was a terrible waste of that ship.
                              The movie makes you see what a waste of human life it was.

                              ... the whole movie. It's a decent enough film but when one considers the OP, and the possible, perhaps probable fate of that P-51 pilot at the hands of men such as those featured in the film, should he have survived the crash of his aircraft after being rammed, it may colour one's perspective.

                              "I am Groot"
                              - Groot

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