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is Orwell's ''1984'' a defamation of Stalin ?

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  • Ah. Now I see where the recent Russian behaviour comes from, what with the Brownshirts in Estonia, planting the flag at the North Pole and the military overflights. Pathetic delusions of grandeur.

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    • Originally posted by stalin View Post
      you would do a lot if provided me with documents and not with just fiction novels/propagandistic brainwash like A.Solzshenitsyn or National Geographic.
      I already provided you plenty of "documents" and you called them fiction. If you consider several thousand eyewitness testimonies fiction novels there is nothing I can do for you.

      Once in awhile I agree with Aries. When someone doesn't want to see the truth, there is no reasoning with them.
      A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

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      • Originally posted by pirateship1982 View Post
        ... If you consider several thousand eyewitness testimonies fiction novels...
        yes i do, since none of those ''testimonies'' have been documented.
        you cannot judge historical/political figures while forming your opinion upon literature, see.

        the 20th Century has set completely new standards of how political events should be approached.
        first, take Stalin and Mao to some sort of Nuhrenberg court - and only then accuse them.
        without that done, all you say is merely - '' blah-blah-blah...''

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        • Originally posted by stalin View Post
          the 20th Century has set completely new standards of how political events should be approached.
          How other than to put a civilized attempt at veneer on judging crimes against humanity? We've still got- and periodically use- option b to Nuremberg, which is what happened to the Ceauşescus.

          A lot quicker and cheaper, and arguably more of an example than watching Slobo keel over from a heart attack with his personal terror growing as he realized judgement was truly nigh. And after all those years watching cable TV while his nice Dutch butlers catered to his every culinary whim.
          Last edited by General Staff; 11 Aug 07, 17:15.
          Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
          (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

          Comment


          • Originally posted by General Staff View Post
            How other than to put a civilized attempt at veneer on judging crimes against humanity?
            pretty ''other'', imo.
            civilized ?... - reminds more of a witchhunt...

            Originally posted by General Staff View Post
            A lot quicker and cheaper...than watching Slobo keel over from a heart attack with his personal terror growing as he realized judgement was truly nigh. And after all those years watching cable TV while his nice Dutch butlers catered to his every culinary whim.
            more likely,
            they smothered him with pillow after force-feeding him with poisoned porridge.

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            • Originally posted by stalin View Post
              1) Pretty ''other'', imo. Civilized ?... - reminds [one] more of a witch hunt...
              2) More likely, they smothered him with pillow after force-feeding him with poisoned porridge.
              1) Yes. Once people have decided you've really crossed the boundaries of accepted behaviour, your options as a defendant are going to be limited. Auschwitz or the GULaGs.
              2) Why poison it? It works quite well on its own. The pillow would have been a nice- though perhaps a little OTT- touch.
              Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
              (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

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              • Originally posted by stalin View Post
                yes i do, since none of those ''testimonies'' have been documented.
                What do you qualify as documented - since written record and photographic evidence is clearly not on your list?
                A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

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                • Originally posted by pirateship1982 View Post
                  What do you qualify as documented...
                  Probably carved in ice and left until spring. Rather like many of the bodies I'd imagine...
                  Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
                  (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by pirateship1982 View Post
                    What do you qualify as documented - since written record and photographic evidence is clearly not on your list?
                    documents signed personally by Stalin, Beria, Voroshilov etc.
                    photos cannot be evidence - because circumstances in which they were made are unclear,
                    i.e. - falsification may have taken place.

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                    • Originally posted by stalin View Post
                      before being executed - they had been stood up in court of law which had to sentence them to death.
                      unlike hitler, stalin always used courts to make decisions as to executions.
                      hence, no "mass murders" commited by stalin.
                      stalin is clean, see.
                      see at the bottom of the first paragraph.
                      nakazaju rozstriela - order to shoot.
                      - Your Highness, the enemy is so numerous... they outnumber your army.
                      - My friend, first I beat 'em then I'll count 'em
                      (Polish King Jan III Sobieski during his campaigns)

                      Historia Wojskowa Portal Historyczno-Wojskowy phw.org.pl

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                      • Stalin's order for the KATYN FOREST MASSACRE

                        Top Secret

                        5 March 1940

                        USSR People's Commissariat for Internal Affairs

                        Moscow

                        To Comrade Stalin

                        A large number of former officers of the Polish Army, employees of the Polish Police and intelligence services, members of Polish nationalist, counter-revolutionary parties, members of exposed counter-revolutionary resistance groups, escapees and others, all of them sworn enemies of Soviet authority full of hatred for the Soviet system, are currently being held in prisoner-of-war camps of the USSR NKVD and in prisons in the western provinces of Ukraine and Belarus.

                        The military and police officers in the camps are attempting to continue their counter-revolutionary activities and are carrying out anti-Soviet agitation. Each of them is waiting only for his release in order to start actively struggling against Soviet authority.

                        The organs of the NKVD in the western provinces of the Ukraine and Belarus have uncovered a number of counter-revolutionary rebel organisations.

                        Former officers of the Polish Army and police as well as gendarmes have played an active role in all of these organisations.

                        Amongst the detained escapees and violators of the state borders a considerable number of people have been identified as belonging to counter-revolutionary espionage and resistance organisations.

                        14,736 former officers, government officials, landowners, police, gendarmes, prison guards, settlers in the border regions and intelligence officers [more than 97% are Poles] are being held in prisoner-of-war camps. This number includes soldiers and junior officers.


                        Included are:

                        generals, colonels and lieutenant colonels- 295
                        majors and captains- 2080
                        lieutenants, second lieutenants and ensigns- 6049
                        officers and juniors of the police, gendarmes, prison guards and intelligence officers- 1030
                        rank and file police officers, gendarmes, prison guards and intelligence personnel- 5138
                        government officials, land owners, priests, settlers in border regions- 144
                        18,632 detained people are being kept in the western region of the Ukraine and Belarus
                        [10,685 are Poles]

                        They include:

                        former officers- 1207
                        former intelligence officers of the police and gendarmerie 5141
                        spies and saboteurs- 347
                        former land owners, factory owners and government officials- 465
                        members of various counter-revolutionary and resistance organisations and other counter-revolutionary elements- 5345
                        escapees- 6127

                        In view of the fact that all are hardened and uncompromising enemies of Soviet authority, the USSR NKVD considers it necessary:

                        [1] To instruct the USSR NKVD that it should try before special tribunals:

                        [a] the cases of the 14,700 former Polish officers, government officials,land owners, police officers, intelligence officers, gendarmes, settlers in the border regions and prison guards being held in prisoner-of-war camps;

                        [b] together with the cases of 11,000 members of various counter-revolutionary organisations of spies and saboteurs, former land owners, factory owners, former Polish officers, government officials, and escapees who have been arrested and are being held in the western provinces of the Ukraine and Belarus and apply to them the supreme penalty: shooting.

                        [2] Examination of the cases is to be carried out without summoning those detained and without bringing charges, the statements concerning the conclusion of the investigation and the final verdict should be as follows:

                        [a] for persons being held in prisoner-of-war camps, in the form of certificates issued by the NKVD of the USSR NKVD;

                        [b] for arrested personnel in the form of certificates issued by the NKVD of the Ukrainian SSR and the NKVD of the Belarus SSR.

                        [3] The cases should be examined and the verdict pronounced by a three person tribunal consisting of comrades Merkulov, Kobulov and Bashtakov.

                        People's Commissar for the Internal Affairs of the USSR

                        L Beria

                        [Signed by: Stalin, Voroshilov, Molotov, Mikoyan, Kalinin and Kaganovich]
                        - Your Highness, the enemy is so numerous... they outnumber your army.
                        - My friend, first I beat 'em then I'll count 'em
                        (Polish King Jan III Sobieski during his campaigns)

                        Historia Wojskowa Portal Historyczno-Wojskowy phw.org.pl

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by stalin View Post
                          documents signed personally by Stalin, Beria, Voroshilov etc... Photos cannot be evidence - because circumstances in which they were made are unclear i.e. - falsification may have taken place.
                          Yes. Any particular make or model of pen we should look for? Any particular colour of pen? I mean was Stalin partial to green for death sentences, or gold for the GULaG?

                          Any particular flourishes we should scrutinize these documents for? Was Beria partial to a capital B or a little b after signing some nice-looking lass over to the NKVD's tender mercies after he'd finished with her, and the poor girl selling herself to try to reprieve parts of her family?

                          It might also help if we could get a few signature samples, to weed out those many forgeries.

                          Other than that, this is getting wearing even for my tolerance level. You ex-Soviets IMHO need a Nazi Germany job to cleanse your souls and move on. I've heard anti-Semitism at what I'd consider to be medieval levels, a completely animalistic approach to rape (well they liked it), and the rest of the world and particularly Eastern Europe (Poland really makes me particularly and personally unhappy) condemned as utter ingrates for failing to understand the contribution of The USSR to the world today.

                          Yes there is geopolitik. But there's also acknowledgment of crimes against humanity. The Germans have done it, so have some Balkan nations, even the USA regarding Japanese nationals. Why can't you guys come clean too? Is it because you think Siberia is so remote that folks won't ever get there to find out?

                          You'd maybe better be more careful. Documents and signatures fade in the heat, but what's under the tundra sub-zero can stick around for a long time.
                          Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
                          (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by General Staff View Post
                            1) As in Apple. Though not necessarily big. Fish out of water? Sometimes.
                            Ahh. A fellow New Yorker. But why so far from the friendly confines? Couldn't afford the rent?

                            And what's a small apple, Albany?

                            2) Cold War. You too. Still speak Russian?
                            All the time. Ukrainian and old Slavonic, too, not to mention pre-revolutionary Russian.

                            3) Not at all. I was an immigrant there myself once.
                            An immigrant in NY? I've never seen such a thing. Immigrant from where?

                            Even lived in Turtle Bay, Greenwich Village, Upper East Side, Astoria and Roosevelt Island (tram no subway then).
                            IIRC the subway station opened over ten years ago, so you've been away a while. You wouldn't even recognize Astoria: it's a "hot" nabe lately.

                            LATE EDIT: I grew up with Billy Joel. Great Lyrics and just read your link. Stalin would probably appreciate it.
                            On a personal level he might have chuckled, but the success of his movement outside of Soviet borders was predicated on the pull of such "angry young men:" does Che ring any bells? In public Stalin would have seen Billy Joel as a threat, the same way that Boss Tweed saw Punch -- only Tweed (probably) wouldn't have tried to have Punch liquidated: "litre N" in NKVD speak.
                            I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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                            • Originally posted by slick_miester View Post
                              1) Ahh. A fellow New Yorker. But why so far from the friendly confines? Couldn't afford the rent?
                              2) And what's a small apple, Albany?
                              3) All the time. Ukrainian and old Slavonic, too, not to mention pre-revolutionary Russian.
                              4) An immigrant in NY? I've never seen such a thing. Immigrant from where?
                              5) IIRC the subway station opened over ten years ago, so you've been away a while. You wouldn't even recognize Astoria: it's a "hot" nabe lately.
                              6) On a personal level he might have chuckled, but the success of his movement outside of Soviet borders was predicated on the pull of such "angry young men:" does Che ring any bells? In public Stalin would have seen Billy Joel as a threat, the same way that Boss Tweed saw Punch -- only Tweed (probably) wouldn't have tried to have Punch liquidated: "litre N" in NKVD speak.
                              Ah, a capitalist who knows the value of just-in-time inventory. Good timing.

                              1) Steep now. Work I suppose. I keep joining Wall Street firms who insist on using me at point of origin. Be careful out there...
                              2) No. Just a loft where if you do a Cossack type twirl you'll get hospitalized.
                              3) Pre-T34 Russian? Marvelous! We must chat if I visit. Is the Russian Tea Room still open?
                              4) England. I never noticed one either, though communication was often difficult with my thick country accent. We managed.
                              5) Yes. They were building when I got posted so 1992+. Worked in WTC and am holding out for the replacement(s) before return if I can. Too many memories and some lost friends.
                              6) 'Liquidate' seems such an awful word applied to a human being. Is that really the direct translation from Russian? Also can you provide more detail on NKVD 'Litre N'?
                              Last edited by General Staff; 13 Aug 07, 17:01.
                              Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
                              (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

                              Comment


                              • ... together with the cases of 11,000 members of various counter-revolutionary organisations of spies and saboteurs, former land owners, factory owners, former Polish officers, government officials, and escapees who have been arrested and are being held in the western provinces of the Ukraine and Belarus and apply to them the supreme penalty: shooting .
                                and so what ?
                                once again you're bringing up this document,
                                as if it isn't well known - back then, you Poles wanted to grab Belarus and Ukraine.
                                meanwhile, all you had to do is to keep your hands off these lands; but you chose to mess around there.

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