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is Orwell's ''1984'' a defamation of Stalin ?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by stalin View Post
    1) However, O'Brien ''appealed'' to Winston's ''individualism'' - and not ''collectivism''. The bad form of ''collectivism'' represented in ''1984'' has its roots in ''individualism'' of those akin to Winston.
    2) Then, let us study O'Brien more closely. As for me, I don't believe that he's a ''collectivist''.
    3) Moreover, I think O'Brien doesn't give a damn about ''the interests of the collective''.
    4) And after all, do the ''collectivists'' really exist ?
    5) Moreover, all states in a world are more or less collectivist. Whereas - people, populating these states are doubtless ''individualists''.
    1) He had to address Winston's individualism in order to 'correct' it. Part of any 'problem's' 'solution' is the ability to accurately identify it.
    2) He is what is known in Western society as 'Everyman'. The ultimate individual.
    3) Not sure. One of the tragedies of a totalitarian society is a (terrifying) ability to often mask the needs of the individuals at the top under the pretense of serving the collective.
    4) For myself, no. Humans are individuals and- at the end of the day, or Room 101- will always look to serve their own needs first, a few remarkable and altruistic individuals exceptions to this. [Collective] totalitarianism then becomes a mirage or illusion- or a device to get everyone to serve the regime's or hierarchy's interest, no matter how noble and well-intentioned the revolution that began the process.
    5) The key here is whether power flows top-down or bottom-up. Both are individualist- the Q is whether it is really so (bottom-up) or whether the individuals are being fooled by a hierarchy who guard their individual profit(s) by pretending they are acting in a collective interest. IMO Zimbabwe and North Korea eventually will be the case studies on this for generations- utterly ludicrous societies.

    A last thought or two. When I go to vote, I generally meet an old retired person who is devoted to democracy and everything it- and the ideals it represents- stands for. Who hands me a ballot paper and often thanks me for rolling up at all. This usually shames me into first saying thank you and secondly voting. And I know the votes are going to be counted by folks like that old retired person, who have no vested interest in the result other than passing down to future generations the lesson that my- and everyone else's- vote will be tallied correctly and count.
    Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
    (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

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    • #47
      Originally posted by General Staff View Post
      ... One of the tragedies of a totalitarian society is a (terrifying) ability to often mask the needs of the individuals at the top under the pretense of serving the collective...
      and vice versa...
      the so-called ''tragedy'' of whatever society is that -
      the needs of either the ''individual-at-the-top'' or the ''collective-behind-the-scenes'' get masked under pretty much anything.

      Originally posted by General Staff View Post
      ... When I go to vote...I know...that my- and everyone else's- vote will be tallied correctly and count.
      so, you can vote the ''islamotots'' out of england, can't you ?
      or, you vote and vote until it's too late and the time comes to cut off their heads ??
      democracy is - when you implement your interests with a gun in a hand, and not only vote endlessly.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by stalin View Post
        1) And vice versa... the so-called ''tragedy'' of whatever society is that - the needs of either the ''individual-at-the-top'' or the ''collective-behind-the-scenes'' get masked under pretty much anything.
        2) So, you can vote the ''Islamotots'' out of England, can't you ? Or, you vote and vote until it's too late and the time comes to cut off their heads ??
        3) Democracy is - when you implement your interests with a gun in a hand, and not only vote endlessly.
        1) The problem is the collective- and those individuals in charge of its resources and what they get used for- can bury you. As happened to Winston.
        2) Yes, if the majority want. Head-cutting went out of style around the time of Charles I, but we have been there and know it's not really a long-term solution. Hence the houses of Parliament (Lords and Commons) and an unwritten constitution that we interpret as we want. A perpetual state of class struggle if you will. An alternative is to move elsewhere, which I've done a number of times.
        3) Not democracy, though that's been tried here too. Hence 2. Voting endlessly sounds good if it leads to gradual and periodic change. And I'd rather vote endlessly for the rest of my life than live in 'Kim's World'.
        Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
        (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

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        • #49
          Originally posted by General Staff View Post
          The problem is the collective...can bury you. As happened to Winston.
          you can be ''buried'' by the collective, individual, the collective+individual, individual+collective etc.
          so, there's no any particular system to it.

          Originally posted by General Staff View Post
          ... An alternative is to move elsewhere...
          and finally end up becoming a nomad ?
          nice perspective...
          omg !

          Originally posted by General Staff View Post
          ... I'd rather vote endlessly for the rest of my life than live in 'Kim's World'.
          hitler was voted and elected through democratic elections.
          so, maybe you're on a right way if not to ''kim's world'' then - the ''third reich'', for sure.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by stalin View Post
            1) You can be ''buried'' by the collective, individual, the collective+individual, individual+collective etc. So, there's no particular system to it.
            2) And finally end up becoming a nomad ? Nice perspective... OmG !
            3) Hitler was voted and elected through democratic elections. So, maybe you're on a right way if not to ''Kim's World'' then - the ''Third Reich'', for sure.
            1) You missed the piece in the middle in my earlier reply. That's the individual(s) in charge of societal resources. You're much more likely to get buried by him/her/them than any individual gravedigger.
            2) Works for me. I take my capitalist flock up into the mountains in the summer, and after a period of fattening-up and extensive re-education bring them down for collective fleecing and slaughter in the winter. Besides I though you guys had the heads up on the nomadic lifestyle- all those -stans and that long railway line to the edge of eternity...
            3) Yes, but WWI didn't help. George W. and Putin too- 9/11 and Chechnya didn't help there either. Serbia seems to take the biscuit in electing demagogues recently and look where it's got them. Democracy is a process of continuous improvement and re-education. We must all strive to make better choices. Read the glossy election brochures, study the propaganda carefully, put your weapons aside, chat to your friends and neighbours- then vote.
            Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
            (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

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            • #51
              Originally posted by General Staff View Post
              ... the individual(s) in charge of societal resources. You're much more likely to get buried by him/her/them than any individual gravedigger.
              exaggeration that.
              and substitution of facts too.
              because, you're much more likely to get buried by any kind of individual ''gravedigger'' -
              than by those ''in charge of societal resources''.

              Originally posted by General Staff View Post
              ... Democracy is a process of continuous improvement and re-education...
              for example, re-education of the islamists ?
              well, try it on them...
              and what, in their case, the democracy has to offer ?
              a parade of dykes and faggots ?

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              • #52
                Originally posted by stalin View Post
                1) Exaggeration that. And substitution of facts too.
                Because, you're much more likely to get buried by any kind of individual ''gravedigger'' - than by those ''in charge of societal resources''.
                2) For example, re-education of the Islamists ? Well, try it on them...
                3) And what, in their case, [does] democracy have to offer ? A parade of dykes and faggots ?
                1) You're right. I should have said 'shot' as opposed to 'buried'. Gravediggers don't shoot people, do they?
                2) Re-educate Islamotots? Without a full frontal lobotomy, I'm coming to the conclusion that it's futile. To them, it's always the fault of the people who want to help. Best leave their re-education to themselves- sink in swamps or quicksands or deserts or swim for yourselves.
                3) If you're talking dykes as in Holland and faggots as in Inquisition then they're there already. They have dykes on the Tigris/Euphrates and they still burn people to death. If we're talking sexual orientation along the lines of the parade you boys organized so well a little while ago, why they're well used to 'faggots' already. 'Dykes' is a little more difficult since women don't seem to get out and about to mingle much.
                Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
                (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by General Staff View Post
                  ... Gravediggers don't shoot people, do they?...
                  depends on the kind of a ''gravedigger''...

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by stalin View Post
                    depends on the kind of a ''gravedigger''...
                    I suppose if it's the boys used in the forest at Katyn, the answer is 'yes'. Unless of course they all dug their own graves, were then issued with Nagans and managed to shoot themselves in the back of the neck.
                    Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
                    (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      no, they were shot by those who made graves for them.
                      therefore, they were shot by ''gravediggers''.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by stalin View Post
                        No, they were shot by those who made graves for them. Therefore, they were shot by ''gravediggers''.
                        That's a very clever and circuitous way around the issue. We wouldn't want to doublethink and trip over ourselves on a bone (or two) or the truth now would we?

                        You should join me in the 'Chestnut Tree' for a Gin (and Tonic- perpetual war shortages and rationing permitting of course) some time...

                        Now here's a resource I've been withholding from you for some time, зек- until I felt you were ready. Use it wisely and remember, Big Brother is always watching you...

                        http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/
                        Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
                        (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by General Staff View Post
                          ... join me in the 'Chestnut Tree' for a Gin...http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/


                          splendid site that.
                          thanks for invitation, dear comrade.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by stalin View Post
                            Splendid site that.
                            Пожалуйста товарищ ! Yes. Magic. And hopefully you will see here how we try to balance East and West in the interests of (social) profit. After all, without profit, no running, no dog and no capitalism. We have to eat here too, and if you cannot feed the dog, you're in big trouble.

                            I even have the full text of Goldstein's book(s?) waiting for you, once you have mastered first the SHIFT and then the CAPS LOCKS key and truly metamorphosed into an individual butterfly! Let your spirit fly!

                            So less i and more I! Or Me not me! Antony not antony, and Beevor not beevor! Even Stalin not stalin! And if you must return to delve into the collective for an opinion, it is we not We!
                            Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
                            (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

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                            • #59
                              War Is Peace
                              Freedom Is Slavery
                              Ignorance Is Strength

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by stalin View Post
                                War Is Peace
                                Freedom Is Slavery
                                Ignorance Is Strength
                                That's sounds like a tot construct зек. WIP FIS IIS. I believe there are 4 I's there. But it could be 3? Or 5? And needlessly sprinkled. We need something more pure. How many I's? Or fingers? Can you fit the # of fingers to the 'I's?

                                A hint from O'Brien- waiting for your next session in Room 101 and that rat a day older and a $ short- we may now love BB but we have not yet abandoned and betrayed ourselves... The door opens, sunlight rains in... that next step.. take it. It may be unknown but it may save us or you...
                                Last edited by General Staff; 21 Jun 07, 15:49.
                                Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
                                (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

                                Comment

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