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is Orwell's ''1984'' a defamation of Stalin ?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by stalin View Post
    imo, orwell missed the point here.
    whatever totalitarian the state, it can not be that perfect at its totalitarism.

    orwell depicts a state so perfect - it is attractive in its perfection.
    so - eventually, one might start to feel attracted to intimidating perfection of a 1984's state - just the way some people feel attracted to horror movies, nowadays.
    yup. the fundo's running Iran desire such a place and elimination of their percieved foes.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by stalin View Post
      why ''mass murderer'' ?
      stalin didn't order any ''mass murders'' to be committed.
      orwell is biased against stalin and beria, imo.
      Are you kidding me? And you actually believe that?

      What about countless Christians that were thrown in jails and gulags? Many political dissidents were also jailed and murdered. Stalin was a brutal dictator and a subhuman being, after all, he seemed to have possessed none of emotions that make us human beings. How can you possibly claim Stalin didn't order any "mass murders".

      You make me sick. My father had to fled his own country after what Stalin did to the rest of Eastern Europe, forcing most of it to be brought under Soviet control. My father never saw his home country again, and moved to America. He was one of few lucky ones to survive Stalin. Please don't tell me that Stalin never committed any murder.

      Dan
      Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

      "Aim small, miss small."

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      • #18
        Originally posted by stalin View Post
        Orwell depicts a state so perfect - it is attractive in its perfection.
        That is his genius. The fact that the Soviet Union ended up resembling Oceania is the Soviet Union's problem, not Oceania's.

        Oceania- and 1984- was NOT modeled specifically on the Soviet Union. Orwell's genius is in his uncanny ability to anticipate totalitarian states of his time eventually ending up like Oceania- taken to totalitarianism's logical and absurd conclusions.

        Discussed elsewhere also. See thread on 'Animal Farm' or search site for Orwell.
        Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
        (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

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        • #19
          Sorry to state the obvious but 1984 is mainly a warning on the dangers of totalitarian government. It will obviously draw on real life examples and you can see aspects of the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany in the book.It also, according to Orwell, reflects some of his thoughts on Britain, the British Empire and the USA.

          The fact that 1984 contains many interpretations of real life examples of practises, groups and policies from totalitarian countries of the time only makes the warnings laid out in the book more believable. That should be a reflection on those states not on Orwell, and perhaps give some pause for thought - the things he suggests are not the wild ravings of a conspiracy theorist. They were (and are) there for all to see, and remain a real danger.

          Perhaps a first step is to try and see what 1984 is saying.
          Last edited by Sergio; 18 Jun 07, 01:58.
          "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it"
          G.B Shaw

          "They promised us homes fit for heroes, they give us heroes fit for homes."
          Grandad, Only Fools and Horses

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Cheetah772 View Post
            ... What about countless Christians that were thrown in jails and gulags?...
            stop making up stories, mate.
            christians weren't oppressed during stalin's rule.
            my ancestors - all were christians, and they weren't ''thrown in jails''.

            Originally posted by Cheetah772 View Post
            ... Many political dissidents were also jailed and murdered...How can you possibly claim Stalin didn't order any "mass murders"...
            political dissidents weren't ''murdered''.
            before being executed - they had been stood up in court of law which had to sentence them to death.
            unlike hitler, stalin always used courts to make decisions as to executions.
            hence, no "mass murders" commited by stalin.
            stalin is clean, see.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by General Staff View Post
              ... Oceania- and 1984- was NOT modeled specifically on the Soviet Union...
              hmmm...
              how about such characters in ''1984'' as big brother, o'brien and goldstein
              which are consecutive replicas of joseph stalin, lavrenty beria and leon trotsky(bronstein) ?

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Sergio View Post
                ... 1984 is mainly a warning on the dangers of totalitarian government...
                a warning it is.
                however, how successful orwell is at it ?
                the picture he draws in ''1984'' is too clean and seamless for being plausible.

                orwell warns against the ''-ism'' and totally overlooks the dangers brought by human nature.
                he sees the vices of a state, but pays no attention to the vices of humankind.
                whereas, it's the vices and virtues of humankind as the whole that make totalitarism or democracy possible.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by stalin View Post
                  1) Stop making up stories, mate. Christians weren't oppressed during Stalin's rule. My ancestors - all were Christians, and they weren't ''thrown in jails''.
                  2) Political dissidents weren't ''murdered''. Before being executed - they had been stood up in court of law which had to sentence them to death. Unlike Hitler, Stalin always used courts to make decisions as to executions. Hence, no "mass murders" committed by Stalin. Stalin is clean, see.
                  1) Anyone born in a totalitarian society is, I'd argue, by definition, born in jail. Then it's just a question of which facility you work in. Whether you're on 'work release' in the general population or more closely confined and monitored in something like a GULag system. Also depends where you are required by the state as a resource unit.
                  2) Depends how you define murder. Putting someone out in a Siberian winter maintaining roads in the middle of the night in a pair of cotton pyjamas may not be 'murder', but it's hardly charity either. If they don't make it through the night, it also saves a lot of tribunal time and paperwork, not to mention the creative mental effort of inventing charges like losing '55 Field Kitchens'.
                  Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
                  (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by stalin View Post
                    hmmm... How about such characters in ''1984'' as Big Brother, COLOR="Red"]O'Brien[/COLOR] and Goldstein wh[o] are consecutive replicas of Joseph Stalin, Lavrenty Beria and Leon Trotsky?
                    Coincidental++, since Orwell plainly had to look at his world for patterns and examples to produce the book. He had a bigger target than just Communism, and to insist all this is based on the Soviet Union is really IMO to demean and diminish the scale and quality of his message.

                    Most- if not all- totalitarian regimes are going to have a leader, a head of an oppressive security apparatus and an anti-hero, who the leader can focus internal hatred against as a cause of problems. Also external enemies, to provide additional blame for internal stresses and problems.
                    Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
                    (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by stalin View Post
                      1) A warning it is. However, how successful [is] Orwell at it ? The picture he draws in ''1984'' is too clean and seamless for being plausible.
                      2)Orwell warns against the ''-ism'' and totally overlooks the dangers brought by human nature. He sees the vices of a state, but pays no attention to the vices of humankind. Whereas, it's the vices and virtues of humankind as the whole that make totalitarianism or democracy possible.
                      1) Very powerful too. I think you'll find on reflection that 'clean' and 'seamless' go hand in hand with satire, since that helps to get the message across.
                      2) The 'human condition'- vices and virtues- IMO are a given in these works. They're just accepted as the basis on which societies (-isms) are constructed, whether good, bad or indifferent. There is for instance love in 1984, though it doesn't go anywhere in the end- part of the terrible message revealed in Room 101.
                      Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
                      (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

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                      • #26
                        Orwell was prophetic, however I was always drawn to Ayn Rand's works as effective portents of doom. Her books Anthem and Atlas Shrugged should be required reading for all Americans; indeed for all who fear the potential of a totalitarian state.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Martok View Post
                          Orwell was prophetic, however I was always drawn to Ayn Rand's works as effective portents of doom. Her books Anthem and Atlas Shrugged should be required reading for all Americans; indeed for all who fear the potential of a totalitarian state.
                          'Anthem' a marvelous 1/2 way house and rehabilitation home for ex-tots. Takes me back a good few years.

                          http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext98/anthm10.txt

                          Thanks, Martok- there is a God.. You're wasted over there on evolution.
                          Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
                          (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by General Staff View Post
                            Coincidental++...(that the soviet union is being portrayed in ''1984'')
                            however, orwell writes:
                            ''... a coloured poster...It depicted simply an enormous face, more than a metre wide: the face of a man of about forty-five, with a heavy black moustache and ruggedly handsome features.''



                            ''... o'brien was a large, burly man with a thick neck and a coarse,
                            humorous, brutal face. In spite of his formidable appearance he had a
                            certain charm of manner. He had a trick of resettling his spectacles on
                            his nose which was curiously disarming--in some indefinable way, curiously
                            civilized.''



                            ''... the face of Goldstein...It was a lean Jewish face, with a great fuzzy aureole of white hair and a small goatee beard--a clever face, and yet somehow inherently despicable, with a kind of senile silliness in the long thin nose, near the end of which a pair of spectacles was perched.''

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by General Staff View Post
                              ... There is for instance love in 1984, though it doesn't go anywhere in the end...
                              because - it wasn't love, it was ''...a battle, the climax of a victory. It was a blow struck against the party. It was a political act.''

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by stalin View Post
                                However, Orwell writes: ''... a coloured poster...It depicted simply an enormous face, more than a metre wide: the face of a man of about forty-five, with a heavy black moustache and ruggedly handsome features.''
                                Caps Lock, Caps Lock зек at least in tribute to the great man...
                                http://www.orwelltoday.com/orwellkitchener.shtml
                                Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
                                (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

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