Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Fuss over King Philip's War Boardgame

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Here is a link to the game.
    http://www.multimanpublishing.com/pr...Game.php?id=71
    AHIKS - Play by (E)mail board wargaming since 1965.
    The Blitz - Play by Email computer wargaming.

    Comment


    • #17
      Actually, the point is: Should we write games to please the misconceptions of a particular period, or should game writers attempt to place the gamers in the context of the time. I read your post, correctly or not, as an implication that the French were incapable of understanding Indochina simply because their own context began with the Gauls (never mind that the great majority of French now, and in Jules Ferry's era,were descended from other than Gauls). Transposing that to King Phillip's War, whether we are descended from Puritans or not, and I am most definitely not, our ancestors came to a country that in no small part had been founded by them, simply because whatever their faults, they (and the founders of the other colonies) had collectively created a far better place to live in. If we are going to game King Phillip's War, we should game it as the contesting sides saw it at the time, based upon their historical experience up until that moment, and not as 21st Century romantics, whatever their tribe, wish it to have been.

      I happen to agree with the creator of the game that King Phillip's War needs to be in the historical conscious of Americans. I heard about it in my High School history class only because our teacher (a Mr. Trull) had an ancestor in that war.
      dit: Lirelou

      Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá ǵ!

      Comment


      • #18
        Lirelou, I am still having trouble pinning down where you disagree with me, if in fact you are. So, if you don't mind I am going to carry you out to the plate. You don't actually come out and say it, but, all statements about "context," "historical experience," and "researching both sides," aside, you think researching the Native American perspective on King Philip's War is, in some way, not a good thing. Is this correct?

        Originally posted by lirelou View Post
        Actually, the point is: Should we write games to please the misconceptions of a particular period, or should game writers attempt to place the gamers in the context of the time.
        This is unobjectionable, but may be irrelevant to the debate so far--nobody here has been arguing for politicized history. Rather the debate has centered on how much research should a game designer be responsible for.

        I read your post, correctly or not, as an implication that the French were incapable of understanding Indochina simply because their own context began with the Gauls (never mind that the great majority of French now, and in Jules Ferry's era,were descended from other than Gauls).
        Ah, no. "Our ancestors, the Gauls" was the first sentence in the textbooks Vietnamese schoolchildren were required to read and recite from in the early 20th century. As a talking point, it had a good deal of symbolic importance in the creation of an independence-minded intelligentsia. The thought of Native American kids in schools having to read about "their ancestors the Puritans" is what I meant about the blurb-writer having a historical tin ear. The sentiment of "our ancestors the Puritans" also sends up a red flag for me on a number of other issues.

        Transposing that to King Phillip's War, whether we are descended from Puritans or not, and I am most definitely not, our ancestors came to a country that in no small part had been founded by them, simply because whatever their faults, they (and the founders of the other colonies) had collectively created a far better place to live in.
        My bet is that defending a particular view of American history is probably your key issue here . But I could be wrong.

        If we are going to game King Phillip's War, we should game it as the contesting sides saw it at the time, based upon their historical experience up until that moment, and not as 21st Century romantics, whatever their tribe, wish it to have been.
        Again unobjectionable, but overly general.
        (1) How does one represent both sides without researching both sides?
        (2) Where are you getting the bit about "21st century romantics" from? This discussion is about quality of scholarship and to what extent it is reasonable to expect designers to engage in full-blown research. Like the use of the term "political correctness," this strikes me as a bit of rhetorical sheep-herding .

        I happen to agree with the creator of the game that King Phillip's War needs to be in the historical conscious of Americans. I heard about it in my High School history class only because our teacher (a Mr. Trull) had an ancestor in that war.
        Obviously it is in the consciousness of some Americans (you only get one guess as to which ones ). But for those Americans, King Philip's War has roughly the same significance as Kossovo Pole has for the Serbs.
        Every 10 years a great man.
        Who paid the bill?

        Comment


        • #19
          you think researching the Native American perspective on King Philip's War is, in some way, not a good thing. Is this correct?
          That is not correct. If one can determine what the Native American perspective on King Philip's war was at the time, then it must be included. But the mere opinions of some 21st Century descendant of those Native-Americans does not constitute 'the' Native-American perspective.

          "Our ancestors, the Gauls" was the first sentence in the textbooks Vietnamese schoolchildren were required to read and recite from in the early 20th century.
          It was the same textbook being used in France, where as I pointed out, no small number of students also were not descended from Gauls. You greatly overestimate the number of Vietnamese schoolchildren who ever got that far in school. A small minority who studied in the French modeled Lycees, did study that text. And not all schools in Vietnam under the French were modeled on the Lycees. If I could study Latin in High School and identify with the Romans, why could Vietnamese students not study French and identify with the Gauls for a page or two? After all, Giap managed to identify with Napoleon and his marshals.

          But for those Americans, King Philip's War has roughly the same significance as Kossovo Pole has for the Serbs.
          Assume you mean Kossovo Polje. But if it does, then they need to get over it and move on. The war was over three hundred years ago. The game designers owe no one an apology for the results.
          dit: Lirelou

          Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá ǵ!

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by lirelou View Post
            That is not correct. If one can determine what the Native American perspective on King Philip's war was at the time, then it must be included. But the mere opinions of some 21st Century descendant of those Native-Americans does not constitute 'the' Native-American perspective.
            There are a lot of problems with this perspective. Don't underestimate the capacity of non-academics (including Native Americans) to understand their own history. It's an understanding that often goes well beyond "mere opinion." For one thing, I would not underestimate oral tradition. I can think of a number of cases where that has ended up trumping official history (and plenty more where it hasn't). If it's there it's probably not definitive, but may end up being another line of evidence to play off against the documentary record.

            Dealing with documentary evidence, there is also the value of historical research conducted from another perspective, such as by a tribal historian. Two or more people can look at the same data and come up with very different interpretations. Events like this war this are complicated and the motivations very rarely clear cut. People were usually floundering through, doing the best they could with the understandings they had to hand. The unified historical narrative gets slapped down later. So the more perspective the better, especially if you are presuming to represent both sides fairly.

            And finally, whether the consultation provides new thought or not, there is simply the question of civility or courtesy, given that the game purports to represent Native American history (of course I admit given the current debased level of civil discourse in this country, any appeal to courtesy is spitting in the wind).

            Again, if it's just a game, then whatever. But if it is intended as an educational tool for schools, then it's a different ballgame.

            It was the same textbook being used in France, where as I pointed out, no small number of students also were not descended from Gauls. You greatly overestimate the number of Vietnamese schoolchildren who ever got that far in school. A small minority who studied in the French modeled Lycees, did study that text. And not all schools in Vietnam under the French were modeled on the Lycees. If I could study Latin in High School and identify with the Romans, why could Vietnamese students not study French and identify with the Gauls for a page or two? After all, Giap managed to identify with Napoleon and his marshals.
            Whether the Vietnamese intelligentsia were "right" or "wrong" in taking offence or in using it to their advantage is beside the point. The fact is they did. It's history.

            Assume you mean Kossovo Polje.
            Actually I meant Kosovo Polje

            But if it does, then they need to get over it and move on. The war was over three hundred years ago.
            Here I think you gravely underestimate the role history plays in creating a sense of nationhood or some other sense of group belonging. History and myth (in the anthropological sense) are often hard to tell apart. Look at the ideological importance of, well, the Puritans , Or the Wild West, or even Thermopylae. It may not be rational, it may not be morally right, but it's a fact. It's why people get so heated up about it.

            The game designers owe no one an apology for the results.
            Nobody here said they did.
            Last edited by Zemlekop; 27 Apr 10, 20:22.
            Every 10 years a great man.
            Who paid the bill?

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Zemlekop View Post
              I Wargames bracket off a very specific bit of history, usually revolving around the technical aspects of military maneuver. There are no civilians , columns of refugees needing suppies, or einsatzgruppen. That would make it more realistic but it would be in incredibly bad taste, so wargaming is in kind of a lose/lose situation there.
              There are plenty of games that include civilians, refugees, targeting of civilians, and any number of other permutations of their appearance. The Warfighter series has civilians that alternate between combatant/non-combatant states. There are a variety of designs that kick around the Balkans and don't turn a blind eye to the atrocities there (tho the ones I've seen were all in dev/playtest stages). There's even a board game about the Holocaust.

              Civilians are a very important factor in war, but the effects with them must be relevant to the game somehow. There's no headcount of civilian casualties as a result of bombing in Luftwaffe, for instance. Why? Not because it didn't happen, or because it's an attempt to sanitize the game. It's because there's no game mechanism which would be affected by the presence of civilian casualties - we weren't going to ease up no matter how many civilians dies, and the Germans weren't surrendering until the Reds rolled into Berlin, so civilian casualties were in no position to impact anything happening in the game.
              In the event of another forum meltdown, feel free to join us over at www.armchairdragoons.com

              Comment

              Latest Topics

              Collapse

              Working...
              X