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  • Martok
    replied
    Aaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Could we get into a more boring debate? How long does it take for a steel pipe to rust? A leaf to turn brown during the Clinton years verses the Bush years? Inquiring minds want to know.

    Now imagine John Kerry speaking: I Believe!! that the current trend in strategy board gamers not being able to find partners to play their games with is due the Bush administrations total dependence on technology based games which require less time to play! I served in Viet Nam, and I can tell you that if a Republican can spend two hours playing a game on his fancy, expensive computer purchased at the expense of the poor as opposed to ten hours pushing little pieces of environment friendly cardboard around, he will! Because Republicans hate the environment! And the Poor!

    There you have it.

    Leave a comment:


  • panzerkampfwage
    replied
    Originally posted by Aries
    Keep the faith dude, at 14 a lot of life has only just begun for you.

    Given a chance, and you will get given chances for a lot of things, wargames will probably not always be as important.

    I spent almost my whole teen experience in text books, then joined the infantry at 17.
    I ended up bloody smart where science and history are concerned, but I don't understand sports, I can't fix a car, and have no idea what dating is like.

    Not sure I made a bad choice or a good one to be honest.
    Ive spent my life studying Small-unit Panzer tactics, learning almost every tank out there (and aircraft) Panzer and Panzergrandier Divisional Structure, playing wargames, reading everything about modern war I can find and Ive put togther Rommels entire Afrika Korp at the time of the Second Al Almein (Every Tank, and Gun is accounted for) On the other side, I hide all of that at school and few people know that I Know this stuff. Ive reenacted most of thee movie Jackass and more stupid stuff. I am the centerpeice of our Middleschool Football team, Im 14 and 140 pounds but I can squat 190 pounds 20 times without slowing

    Leave a comment:


  • LRB
    replied
    Originally posted by Overseer
    Maybe he's setting you up for the big trouble.
    Well I have a friend, a 40 something mother, she's got two teen kids. Other side of the planet. Same conditions hehe.

    One day she's so proud of her mid teens son, the next day she wants to kill the little bugger

    I suppose that's just the norm for raising a teen hehe.

    Leave a comment:


  • Overseer
    replied
    Originally posted by Aries
    In reponse to the comment about my son. Between 1 and 12, he's been a suspiciously great kid, and interested learner, polite, and does what he's told.

    But he's going to be a teen shortly I expect to be annoyed with him a lot for a few years hehe. I will re assess him when he's 21
    Maybe he's setting you up for the big trouble.

    Leave a comment:


  • LRB
    replied
    I sholuld state, just so it's understood, I actually like the young more than my age and older in several ways.

    If I could snap my fingers, politics would be forbidden to any over 25.

    Nothing like putting those that have to actually worry about the future, in charge of it.

    If I die tomorrow, I've seen and done a heck of a lot more than a 20 year old.

    In reponse to the comment about my son. Between 1 and 12, he's been a suspiciously great kid, and interested learner, polite, and does what he's told.

    But he's going to be a teen shortly I expect to be annoyed with him a lot for a few years hehe. I will re assess him when he's 21

    Leave a comment:


  • Overseer
    replied
    The P&P vs. CRPG difference I believe is quite substantial.

    Those playing MMORPGs are getting a completely different (and in my opinion significantly shallower) experience than those who played P&P games. Some of the games out there, like "Neverwinter Nights" are a bit different and closer to the development that P&P games provided.

    The difference is of course a matter of premade vs. self-made content. P&P, at least every group I played, only occasionally used modules and such that held adventures. Most of the time we even skipped out on sticking very rigidly to existing worlds (and sometimes rule systems).

    The MMORPGs as they are today are little more that stat-increasing-dungeon crawls. Sure, some P&P games were the same depending on the group, but I think you found far more players trying to get creative about their characters, worlds, plots, etc than is possible in an MMORPG.

    Leave a comment:


  • Overseer
    replied
    Originally posted by Aries
    "The difference is that I've actually researched studies in my time on prior generations. What studies have you referenced on today's generation?"

    Man you sooooo walked right into a brick wall on that one.

    Let's see, research. 12 year old son. Same as 12 continuous years of 24 hours a day 7 days a week non stop study. Care to top that?

    I don't take much interest in the opinions of researchers over people that made the history though.

    My military library is mainly books written by the men that made the history. Or in rare cases women ie I have Kay Summersby's book about her life with Ike.
    Patton's book, Rommel's book, Kesslering's book, etc.

    Research has it's merits for getting numbers correct, but it won't impart what the time period was like.

    I've also a few years working with Scouts Canada. Lots of my local friends are young persons too.

    Congrats. One case. That's not a statistically significant sample.

    And I gather your son is quite the promising young one - that runs pretty counter to the feelings of kids today being vapid and unable to sit and think.
    Last edited by Overseer; 16 Sep 06, 14:53.

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  • Siberian HEAT
    replied
    As an anecdote about how things have changed....

    When I was in 8th grade (early 80's) I was consumed by the Star Trek Combat Game. Me and my friend used to literally spend hours with pencil and paper managing our fleets, pretending we had starbases, transferring units back and forth, and ocassionally going to battle with our enemies (another set of friends who always played Klingons). When we had enough money together, and could get a ride, we'd go to the local mall and play the arcade Star Trek game to get a taste of the evolving computer world.

    If that had happened today, I would certainly not have done all the pencil pushing, I simply would have the computer version, and I would have a similar amount of fun playing with my mates via the computer. We'd probably hang out at each other's house - bringing our computers over to LAN against each other.

    The net result is functionally similar in that we love the content, strategy and tactics provided either by pencil and paper or by computers. One issue worth exploring is which of these is better for long term development? Are the kids playing Dungeons and Dragons online (or WoW) as creative as "We" were growing up playing D&D with real dice and paper? Is this the same argument as reading a book vs. watching a movie?

    I doubt the proportion of people playing wargames relative to the greater population has ever changed. What has changed is that most of those wargame-inclined people today are using the computer to play wargames. Using technology to game should not be seen as a step away from the "Golden Age" or a sign that kids today aren't able to sit still or pay attention any better than "back before computers." Some of my friend's kids are very tactically gifted in PC games and play as well as I do in most games, and kick my butt in others. They have a great degree of focus and attention. If they grew up in 1970s with me, we would have certainly been playing D&D together!

    Leave a comment:


  • LRB
    replied
    "The difference is that I've actually researched studies in my time on prior generations. What studies have you referenced on today's generation?"

    Man you sooooo walked right into a brick wall on that one.

    Let's see, research. 12 year old son. Same as 12 continuous years of 24 hours a day 7 days a week non stop study. Care to top that?

    I don't take much interest in the opinions of researchers over people that made the history though.

    My military library is mainly books written by the men that made the history. Or in rare cases women ie I have Kay Summersby's book about her life with Ike.
    Patton's book, Rommel's book, Kesslering's book, etc.

    Research has it's merits for getting numbers correct, but it won't impart what the time period was like.

    I've also a few years working with Scouts Canada. Lots of my local friends are young persons too.

    Leave a comment:


  • Overseer
    replied
    Originally posted by salinator
    And No, I did not say that electronic devices are a distraction of your free time.
    I was talking to Aries about that.

    I think the answer's already been made about why boardgaming is less interesting - it's simply much easier to just play a computer version. That's less to do about time than simple convenience. It just makes more sense to utilize a superior tool to do a job.

    Originally posted by Aries
    I'm not wanting this to be contentious Overseer, but hmm how to say this. You're 23 right (that's as it is posted).

    There's simply no way for you to make the assertion that today is the same as the 70's. You weren't even alive, and generally speaking, a person's opinion is not entirely relevant till they reach a reasonable measure of age.
    So if you were born in 83, I can fairly write off the 80s while I'm at it, and maybe a large swath of the 90's.
    The difference is that I've actually researched studies in my time on prior generations. What studies have you referenced on today's generation?

    Leave a comment:


  • Salinator
    replied
    Overseer,

    The discussion on this thread is about why war-boardgames are less popular than other activities. It is not a competetion between generations, rather each generation has to compete with its own in regards to other activities. I can see no reason why you are trying to change it into a debate of intellect between generations.

    I never suggested that "the previous generations was less ....apt to avoid thinking than the current generation". Those are your words, not mine.

    And No, I did not say that electronic devices are a distraction of your free time. The electronic devices is in direct competetion for your time, that is WHY the older generations had more time.
    Last edited by Salinator; 16 Sep 06, 05:36.

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  • LRB
    replied
    "I'm not I'm getting you right, are you saying all the electronic devices, like consoles and such are distractions on our free time?

    That doesn't make much sense - I play games in my free time. Work is the only distraction on my free time. Most everything else is by default my free time... If I'm on my cellphone (a very rare occurance) it's because it's what I want to do in my free time. If I want to use my time for something else, I ignore it. Same with TV, or any other similar example. It's not distracting me from my free time - it is my free time.

    Now I won't deny wishing I had more free time to do more things, but anything I'm doing while I'm not at work (aside from various errands) is in fact what I choose to be doing in my free time."

    I'm not wanting this to be contentious Overseer, but hmm how to say this. You're 23 right (that's as it is posted).

    There's simply no way for you to make the assertion that today is the same as the 70's. You weren't even alive, and generally speaking, a person's opinion is not entirely relevant till they reach a reasonable measure of age.
    So if you were born in 83, I can fairly write off the 80s while I'm at it, and maybe a large swath of the 90's.

    That's not me being mean, just stating the facts.

    It's like my dad discussing the depression, He was there, and I have zero relevant capacity to say much about the conditions. Just details in a book at best for me.

    I can't really enjoy WW3 games, too much baggage. I LIVED that time period. I WAS there. I missed the duck and cover era though (thank god).

    I was not commenting on your "quantity" of free time, or ability to employ it. I was quantifying the overwhelming amount of signal noise in your ability to focus, in the world of today. That noise was NOT there in the 70's.

    In 1970 I didn't need to worry if I missed an email, there was none.
    I didn't need to wonder should I have a cell phone if I go camping as I might get lost and or hurt. Didn't have the option, I either went or I didn't.
    A phone was something that sat on a table or wall, when it rang you HAD to get up to answer it. It wasn't sitting next to me waiting to interupt me at any moment with a friend wondering why I took so long to answer the phone.
    As a youth, channel surfing was not an option, you don't call it surfing when it's 12 channels you have to change by getting up each time. I was lucky to have 3 channels to care about in the first place.
    I wasn't wrapped up in an online game for hours.
    I read a rare game magazine maybe, I sure didn't get real time game news.
    If I wanted to try a game I either bought it or suffered. Games never had demos, you either bought it or not.

    The list goes on and on.

    Youth, young adult, old fart, no one is untouched by todays massive barrage of media entertainment and communications.
    Thus, it's not a slag on youths. But I can assure you, if you are 23, you have no idea what the world felt like before all this technology.
    It was slower, quieter, more manual, less instaneous gratification, less automated.

    Sure we all have "choices" in how we spend our spare time.
    But, I dare say, you would not no what to do with yourself, if for the next month, you turned it all off and went without it.
    I've been there already, I know what it feels like already. But, I bet most kids today would go into shock

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  • Overseer
    replied
    Originally posted by salinator
    Hmmmm.....

    First, it was an opinion on why I think there is little interest on these games, since it was not based on any research, I cannot claim to be correct........but what makes you correct? I thought this was a discussion, not a contest of statistics. Am I wrong about that?

    Second, how was it condescending? I made some remarks based on personal observation and experience. I did not say that the kids today are not intelligent, or are less capable than a earlier generation. I brought up the fact that kids today have less time to devote to war games because they have more available to them. Am I wrong about that?

    Third, I never said anything about "it was better back then". I grew up without a computer, cell phone, or even my own TV......let along all those programs that were not available. Since my peers and I lacked those and many other innovations, it is my belief that the peers of my age had more time to find recreation. Am I wrong about that?

    Fourth, never once did I say or imply that the current generation is less in any way that any former generation. I wish my children to do better and accomplish more in life than I was capable of, just as my parents wished similarly for me. Am I wrong about that?

    Fifth, I think that the kids of our country are far more capable and have much more potential than any of the previous generations. However, our sense of history and order of priorities may not be the same. Am I wrong about that?

    Lastly, for such a simple discussion thread, you seem confrontational. Am I wrong about that?
    Well, I did start mine off with "I think" to suggest its my opinion.

    The fact is, I get tired of hearing that rant over and over again. I don't mean to be particularly hostile in the conversation (and certainly not to you, apologies for seeming that way), but I too often hear the claim of days bygone being better in this or similar regards.

    When I say, better, I don't necessarily mean better better, but that you're saying that previous generations were less... apt to avoid thinking than current generation.

    I think that's a pretty strong thing to accuse kids today of. The basis of claims like that tend to be made because of highly visible instances. The vapid kids standing around in the mall talking on their cellphones to someone on the other side of the mall.

    There were equally useless people 10, 20, 30, 40, etc years ago. I'd bet the proportions probably haven't changed that much.

    But the entire picture has to be accounted for.
    Life was not a picnic in the 70's, but it DID have fewer annoying distractions.
    And anything that takes away from your spare time counts.
    I'm not I'm getting you right, are you saying all the electronic devices, like consoles and such are distractions on our free time?

    That doesn't make much sense - I play games in my free time. Work is the only distraction on my free time. Most everything else is by default my free time... If I'm on my cellphone (a very rare occurance) it's because it's what I want to do in my free time. If I want to use my time for something else, I ignore it. Same with TV, or any other similar example. It's not distracting me from my free time - it is my free time.

    Now I won't deny wishing I had more free time to do more things, but anything I'm doing while I'm not at work (aside from various errands) is in fact what I choose to be doing in my free time.

    Leave a comment:


  • LRB
    replied


    I will accept that there were no "golden" days as well.

    In my highschool years I had the grim back drop of the cold war. Yep positively golden.

    I grew up watching end of the world movies. Not by snow or ice or comet or earthquake or volano. Nope, we were all going to die in a nuclear war. There was a sense of hopeless dread. Try that on for 20 years and see how it affects your psyche.

    In highschool I had a choice, "be like my brother" (super jock, a genuine super jock), and enjoy all his seconds (yes I meant that to be plural too). And his idea of a second was a cheerleader that would be at least an 8.

    But I was an army weirdo. I belonged to a scary bunch of gun loving nut cases that actually frightened the incrowd enough they avoided us out of fear. No one ever sat at our poker table in the cafeteria for good reason.

    But really, we were like about 10 oddballs, and only one of that crowd actually wanted to play wargames seriously. The rest wanted to be out in the boonies actually shooting the real thing. Not pushing cardboard around.

    So even in the groups that are clearly pro military, you don't always get atypical wargamers in great numbers.
    And often chess players play chess because it's just chess. They might totally snub a wargame.

    But in my youth, there simply was no real alternitive activity. Geeks with proto computers were just that, geeks with proto computers.
    Rolegaming was becoming big. But it was paper n pencil not electronic. Those guys wanted imaginary worlds, not history.
    Miniatures was not well known if you ask me. The market probably just had not arrived commercially enough yet.

    But today you can indeed add a lot of factors that DO matter.

    If I wanted to wargame in the 70's, it meant reading a manual or to damn bad. A tutorial was called "the basic rules".
    Today, you really DON'T need any actual real human opponents, if you are willing to play solo. Doesn't aid the situation much in some ways.
    VASSAL etc. is to some extent basically new still.

    And there wasn't any high capacity graphics intense console games to distract us in the 70's. If you had a lot of quarters you might play some arcade games perhaps.
    I look back at pre 90s computer games and marvel the hobby attracted any attention at all. I look back at my Nintendo and I can't understand how I managed to get so obsessed playing it.

    But the entire picture has to be accounted for.
    Life was not a picnic in the 70's, but it DID have fewer annoying distractions.
    And anything that takes away from your spare time counts.

    In the 70's I made some models, played some board games, but my big draw was books.
    God I can barely find the time to slow down and read now a days.

    Technology can definitely be as much a trap as a blessing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Salinator
    replied
    Originally posted by Overseer
    Blah. I think this is completely off base and condescending.

    There are just as many kids today who like to think and enjoy challenging problems, putting effort into their lives, etc. There were plenty of people "back then" that couldn't be bothered spending a single minute of their day thinking.

    It's the classic "it was better back then" BS that pops up everywhere and is very rarely at all substantiated.
    Hmmmm.....

    First, it was an opinion on why I think there is little interest on these games, since it was not based on any research, I cannot claim to be correct........but what makes you correct? I thought this was a discussion, not a contest of statistics. Am I wrong about that?

    Second, how was it condescending? I made some remarks based on personal observation and experience. I did not say that the kids today are not intelligent, or are less capable than a earlier generation. I brought up the fact that kids today have less time to devote to war games because they have more available to them. Am I wrong about that?

    Third, I never said anything about "it was better back then". I grew up without a computer, cell phone, or even my own TV......let along all those programs that were not available. Since my peers and I lacked those and many other innovations, it is my belief that the peers of my age had more time to find recreation. Am I wrong about that?

    Fourth, never once did I say or imply that the current generation is less in any way that any former generation. I wish my children to do better and accomplish more in life than I was capable of, just as my parents wished similarly for me. Am I wrong about that?

    Fifth, I think that the kids of our country are far more capable and have much more potential than any of the previous generations. However, our sense of history and order of priorities may not be the same. Am I wrong about that?

    Lastly, for such a simple discussion thread, you seem confrontational. Am I wrong about that?
    Last edited by Salinator; 16 Sep 06, 00:03.

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