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The Officer's Mess - The place for baiting and taunting the other teams

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  • The Purist
    replied
    Originally posted by Tsar
    I'm not sure the game would have done an economic collapse at that point. I think it has to be done within a certain very short time and it might not even happen if the USSR starts the war against Germany (I've never had that happen in the computer game so I'm not sure).
    That may be true but I did note that the computer kept track of Red Army losses in the production screen but without the "shock" of total war the collapse did not happen. I'm not sure if *war* mean tota; war or limited but in the Finns case the rules state that they enter one week (turn) after war begins with Germany but they did not enter the "limited" war.

    The rule book is not clear so I'm not absolutely sure.
    Last edited by The Purist; 08 May 11, 17:50.

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  • craven
    replied
    Originally posted by The Purist View Post
    Paras are quite expensive since they need both the unit and the transport. The Germans were also faced with the problem that in late 1942 they were racing to crank out as much infantry and infantry replacements as possible. The nine SS pz divisions were nice but they cost almost as much as three infantry divisions. Late 1942 also saw the demise of the LW in the Med as the US and British air forces began to overtake it in numbers.

    In hindsight, yes, a few extra parachute regiments might have helped but,...
    I was looking at early buiilding of the Para ie at the start of the war. Because as you point out at some point rebuilds and replacements are going to suck up most of what the Germans are doing.

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  • craven
    replied
    Originally posted by Tsar View Post
    When the Allies collapsed? When the ell did that happen? Because I've read through both the Sheaf social groups and the threads and I don't see anywhere when they even looked to be on the verge of going down. If I had thought that they were really on the edge I would have pushed for more in Turkey even If we had lost Tunisia it would still have pinned them down in the Med. But again I never saw any indication that they were even hurting let alone on the edge of collapse.
    check the maps in Turkey right when you started to pull out. The allies were on there last legs at that point you had broken there main lines and were forcing them to withdraw in seperate directions I think. Although I do think you needed a couple more units really of break there backs faster.

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  • The Land
    replied
    Originally posted by Tsar View Post
    I'm not sure the game would have done an economic collapse at that point. I think it has to be done within a certain very short time and it might not even happen if the USSR starts the war against Germany (I've never had that happen in the computer game so I'm not sure).
    My CwiE manual says

    "During the first five cycles of war, if the Russians lose 100 or more units of any type, then all on-map arms centers and all arms centers moved to Siberia cease producing arms points until the fifth cycle after invasion..."

    There is an option that means 100 is replaced by an unknown number between 85 and 115.

    So my reading of that is that summer 1942 is too late for any German counterattack to trigger "economic collapse" if the USSR starts the war in autumn/winter 1941. All the more reason why it was the correct decision for the Russian team to attack when we did.

    Obviously if the Turkey operation had worked, we would have been in a very difficult position, but that would have been the case even if we hadn't intervened...

    Originally posted by tsar
    I wasn't looking to start a 2 front war. I was looking to invade the Middle East without the restrictions on our logistics. After we won in Africa I was going to be more then happy to sit behind defensive lines and not bother you at all.
    I think our view at the time was that we were obviously a more important target than Egypt - oh well, just goes to show how people interpret things differently :-D

    However, even setting that aside we didn't really want to see German controlling the Med, and thus we wer eprobalby going to declare war anyway.

    Also, does the USSR DOWing Germany actually have any effect on PPs? I didn't think it did.

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  • Tsar
    replied
    Originally posted by The Purist View Post
    Actually you would have had to have known two things:

    1) the potential for economic disruption if total war was triggered (I assumed tsar took this into account in holding back since he does know the game)
    I'm not sure the game would have done an economic collapse at that point. I think it has to be done within a certain very short time and it might not even happen if the USSR starts the war against Germany (I've never had that happen in the computer game so I'm not sure).

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  • Tsar
    replied
    Originally posted by The Land View Post

    German team - did you really expect Russia not to intervene once you'd invaded Turkey? Or were you really hoping to beat the Allies completely in the Med and sit tight from there regardess of what the USSR could do?
    That was pretty much my thinking. Russia was far to weak to attack us in 1941. I was expecting (hoping) that they would see it as a chance to build up their army for the inevitable clash in 1942.


    Originally posted by The Land View Post
    Our logic was basically that if you were determined to force a war on two fronts then we might as well start one of the fronts in the middle of Turkey, rather than in Georgia, at a time of our choosing rather than your choosing.
    I wasn't looking to start a 2 front war. I was looking to invade the Middle East without the restrictions on our logistics. After we won in Africa I was going to be more then happy to sit behind defensive lines and not bother you at all.
    I figured if one of us was going to declare war it was better to have you do it since that would offset our DoW on Turkey.

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  • Tsar
    replied
    Originally posted by The Purist View Post
    1) The cancellation of the German drive in Turkey in 1942. However, due to fog of war this was not apparent at the time. The fact is that when the Allies collapsed in Turkey the road to Syria was effectively open. More than 1/2 the Turkish army was wrecked and what remained was battered and exhausted. The British were still in the midst of a very hard fought Tunisian campaign and, quite literally, did not have a brigade to spare without weakening one sector or another. The Red Army units Turkey were a paper-tiger,... they looked menacing but had no depth and no reserves (see below). When the order came down to withdraw,... my jaw dropped.
    Cheers.
    When the Allies collapsed? When the ell did that happen? Because I've read through both the Sheaf social groups and the threads and I don't see anywhere when they even looked to be on the verge of going down. If I had thought that they were really on the edge I would have pushed for more in Turkey even If we had lost Tunisia it would still have pinned them down in the Med. But again I never saw any indication that they were even hurting let alone on the edge of collapse.

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  • The Purist
    replied
    Originally posted by craven
    ...Would the production of a few more paratrooper units of been worth it for the German. A few times it seemed a good paratrooper drop would of broken the back of the allies in either greece or turkey.
    Paras are quite expensive since they need both the unit and the transport. The Germans were also faced with the problem that in late 1942 they were racing to crank out as much infantry and infantry replacements as possible. The nine SS pz divisions were nice but they cost almost as much as three infantry divisions. Late 1942 also saw the demise of the LW in the Med as the US and British air forces began to overtake it in numbers.

    In hindsight, yes, a few extra parachute regiments might have helped but,...

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  • Nick the Noodle
    replied
    If it is obvious that the Fog of War hampered everyones judgement at crucial times then it is obvious everyone was acting in a gentlemanly conduct. That in itself is fantastic and I congratulate every player involved.

    However, first congrats to The Purist for running the game.

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  • craven
    replied
    Being an observer on the German side most of the time with peek at the other pages when lags occurred in the game I was not able to tell how close it was. I guessing that was from lack of knowlege of the game. I do agree with Purist I went WTF when the German called off the push in Turkey. My question would be this if Turkey is pushed out of the Game would of that been worth the cost. I am just wondering since I only played the demo and read the rules. It seemed to me that increase in number of Unit the allies had because of Turkey would of made pushing turkey out of the game worth it.


    Would the production of a few more paratrooper units of been worth it for the German. A few times it seemed a good paratrooper drop would of broken the back of the allies in either greece or turkey.

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  • The Purist
    replied
    Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
    Well, there was a certain key bit of information that would have helped A LOT-...
    Actually you would have had to have known two things:

    1) the potential for economic disruption if total war was triggered (I assumed tsar took this into account in holding back since he does know the game)

    and,

    2) that the Red Army was badly battered and had exhausted its reserves in late summer of 1942.

    I believe number two is the salient point, simply triggering total war would not have been to Germany's interest.

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  • Karri
    replied
    Originally posted by Exorcist View Post

    If I had known that, I would have said skrew Limited war and gone for broke.
    Regardless, I will only play this game as an Allied player if it ever comes up again. As the German player, I never knew hwo many allied amphib points were being built, but they knew all about ours.
    Now that's a lie, Purist clearly states the numbers in your OKW thread.



    Knowing you had none though meant that the only thing we kept in UK was offensive reserves and some ad hoc defenders.

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  • The Exorcist
    replied
    Originally posted by The Land View Post
    German team - did you really expect Russia not to intervene once you'd invaded Turkey? Or were you really hoping to beat the Allies completely in the Med and sit tight from there regardess of what the USSR could do?
    Well, there was a certain key bit of information that would have helped A LOT-

    Had the Germans pressed their advanatage and triggered total war by taking Kiev or Riga they would have triggered the historical economic crippling of Russian production that would take 5-6 month to repair.

    If I had known that, I would have said skrew Limited war and gone for broke.
    Regardless, I will only play this game as an Allied player if it ever comes up again. As the German player, I never knew hwo many allied amphib points were being built, but they knew all about ours.


    Thanks for the summary Purist, glad I stuck it out to the end!
    Last edited by The Exorcist; 12 Apr 11, 02:12.

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  • The Land
    replied
    Originally posted by The Purist View Post
    The Failure of Elastic Defence

    OKW tried to invoke a form of elastic defence and while this did save many German units from damage, it surrendered territory in an already too shallow defensive zone in the east. In early winter of 43-44 the few breakthroughs were able to gain ground the Germans could not afford to lose. The retreat into central Poland also allowed the much smaller (historically) Red Army to advance with little loss while at the same time concentrating its strength north of the Carpathians. Once the artillery arrived at the front in concentrated numbers the German line crumbled under successive pounding
    I did notice this a bit as we went along - the Germans were happy to give up ground even when they didn't have much ground to give up.

    Also, since the Red Army has worse logistics and worse units one-for-one, I would imagine that a shorter front benefited our side - on a longer front the sudden appearance of a Panzer Army would have been more of an issue.

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  • The Land
    replied
    Well done everyone! Particularly Purist... wrapped up the game in only a couple of years in the end. :-)

    My own thoughts are basically....

    German team - did you really expect Russia not to intervene once you'd invaded Turkey? Or were you really hoping to beat the Allies completely in the Med and sit tight from there regardess of what the USSR could do?

    Our logic was basically that if you were determined to force a war on two fronts then we might as well start one of the fronts in the middle of Turkey, rather than in Georgia, at a time of our choosing rather than your choosing.

    Plus, of course, this is a wargame not a war - and there's not much value to staying at peace in a wargame!

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