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  • #46
    Originally posted by Karri View Post
    Still room left? Missed the inital announcement...

    I'll take any side, would prefer STAVKA, but since they already have more players I can go with their Allies or Axis.
    I guess you'll have to check with the Soviets as I cannot speak for them. If us lowly, little Allies suffice PM Demon Llama and get his take. He is our CoS.
    "War is sorrowful, but there is one thing infinitely more horrible than the worst horrors of war, and that is the feeling that nothing is worth fighting for..."
    -- Harper's Weekly, December 31, 1864

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Karri View Post
      Still room left? Missed the inital announcement...

      I'll take any side, would prefer STAVKA, but since they already have more players I can go with their Allies or Axis.
      We seem to have a full compliment here at STAVKA

      However I have no issue with assimilating another commander into our Staff...

      It really depends on what Purist thinks is best as he's the GM...

      That being said our Soviet masses will eventually assimilate all!
      BoRG
      "... and that was the last time they called me Freakboy Moses"

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Arthwys View Post
        That being said our Soviet masses will eventually assimilate all!
        Easy on the vodka and beetroots there.
        "War is sorrowful, but there is one thing infinitely more horrible than the worst horrors of war, and that is the feeling that nothing is worth fighting for..."
        -- Harper's Weekly, December 31, 1864

        Comment


        • #49
          Karri,

          We do need some additional bodies on the Allied team. If you would not mind directing the movement of US and CW armies that's where we'll place you.
          The Purist

          Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Twitter3 View Post
            Easy on the vodka and beetroots there.
            I can't help it

            It's the only thing assuaging the embarrassment of the upcoming Winter War
            BoRG
            "... and that was the last time they called me Freakboy Moses"

            Comment


            • #51
              OOOPS,... I hit the EDIT instead of the QUOTE button.

              Sorry Exorcist.

              These new mod powers take some getting used to.


              use the first 3 cadre to build airborne regiments, use any other cadre to build infantry divisions. there will need to be about 3 U-Boats built to satisfy to 30% requirement,and of course airpoints to meet the 30-50% requirement there also. build the minimum possible airpoints and as many ground troops that you can build. If we were going to continue to 13/39 I would have you build another RRU to keep the offensive flowing.

              Agreed on all points, but the minimum possible airpoints?

              That is a policy question OKW needs to resolve.

              Questions-
              How often do we accrue these points?
              Is there a hard and fast rule that we have to spend them right away?
              Is it a weekly, or monthly, commitment?

              Production is done every month (cycle) or 13 times per year. Points are earned each month based on functioning centres (Mfg, Pers and Training)
              Points can be saved and stockpiled.


              One more thing, and this may seem like a silly question, but it's a biggie... and I have not seen any Russians in Poland yet- are we working within the framework of the Nazi-Soviet pact of August?

              Yes The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact is in effect. Now, that doesn't mean either side can't tear it up at their leisure but the economic ramifications for Russia are stark and the Germans would lose access to the Russian resource centre currently made available to them. Neither side gains anything from violating the pact until much later.
              Last edited by The Purist; 25 Nov 09, 13:56.

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              • #52
                German Production Part II

                Alrighty then.

                The Germans have 129 Prod Pt and 116 Pers Pts.

                Before beginning the actual production sequence there is normally some map clean up to do. All divisions that are reduced to cadres need to be moved back to German Weirkreis, or training centres, located in Germany, Poland and Czechoslovakia. Here they are absorbed into the training program to be rebuilt or, if allowed, converted into a different unit entirely. Full divisions, the 6-5 Inf Div for example, can also be sent back for conversion to Motor divs, Pz Gr divs, Pz divs, etc. Whatever the system allows, it is done through the training centres.

                For our example the Germans have managed to get 24 x 1-5 cadres back to the training centres and these have been collected. The next step would be deploying new units that are complete and ready to join the front. These are also placed at the training centres. Once done, the admon is complete and we start building new units.

                Production

                Naval Units

                It is a personal practice of mine to begin with the German navy. The reason being is that if you forget and fall behind in naval builds any corrective action you make later will not have effect for 12 months. Naval units are expensive and take a long time to train and construct.

                As requested by OKW the Germans will spend roughly 30% (the allowed maximum) for our little example. That would equate to about 38 points but as U-Boats cost 10 Prod each, we will limit ourselves to beginning through new wolf packs.

                All values will be dsiplayed as Prod Pts/Pers Pts

                U-Baot costs are 10/1 ea. so three U-Boats will cost 30/3. These will complete production in 0/7/40.

                129/116 - 30/3 = 99/113

                Air Force

                The Germans must spend a minimum of 30% but no more than 50% on air points and ATPs. As instructed by OKW we'll go with as low a value as we can.

                Tac Air Pts cost 8/2 each, ATPs cost 3/1. Since we need to expand the LW to compete with the RAF and French AF this months production will included

                4 x Air Pts for 32/8
                1 x ATP for 3/1
                Total Cost = 35/9

                All these air points will arrive in 0/2/40.

                NB: APs destroyed in combat can be rebuilt for 4/0,... a significant savings that allows the LW to replace losses economically(well, 5 month later with training). ATPs lost do not get this benefit.

                99/113 - 35/9 = 64/104

                The Army

                As directed by the OKW Staff the army will use 3 cadres to begin 3 para reg'ts. Each costs 3/-2 (note the rebate for turning a divisional cadre into a reg't:

                3 x 2-5 Para Reg'ts for 9/-6 (ready in 0/1/40)

                This will reduce the amount of cadres in the pool from 24 to 21. As directed by OKW the balance of the cadres are to be converted into 6-5 infantry divisions (at a cost of 2/3 each):

                21 x 6-5 Inf Div costs 42/63 (ready in 0/13/39)

                The Production Pool has been reduced to 13/47 so we still have room for additional new units. Looking ahead the Reich Production Minister knows that it is overall more militarily efficient to rebuild PZ Divs in the field than to bring them back to Germany. He thus orders the production of a Mech Replacement Point (MRP):

                1 x MRP costs 5/1 (ready in 0/1/40)

                With 8/46 remaining the production team decides to begin to expand the overall strength of the army by beginning two new 1-5 Inf Cadres at 4/7 each:

                2 x 1-5 cadres costs 8/14 (ready in 0/13/39).

                The German production pool has been reduced to 0/32. With no more Prod Pts no further units may be constructed and the 32 remaining Pers Pts. remain in the pool for later use.

                64/104 - (9/-6 + 42/63 + 5/1 + 8/14) = 0/32

                Total German production for 0/10/39 equals:

                3 x U-Boats Pts (7/40)
                4 x AP (2/40)
                1 x ATP (2/40)
                3 x 2-5 Para Reg't (1/40)
                21 x 6-5 Inf Div (13/39)
                2 x 1-5 cadre (13/39)
                1 MRP (1/40)

                Impressive but a one-shot deal. Germany has burnt its pre-war production slack and now needs to relay on monthly output and looting. The next months production would be considerably less. However, as the German economic multiple increases (currently two) so will production.

                This ends the German example.
                Last edited by The Purist; 25 Nov 09, 18:17.
                The Purist

                Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

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                • #53
                  I've been edited??

                  Heh heh, no problem, thanks for getting all that answered.

                  So we take a big hit in the wallet if the pact gets broken.... that's a pretty good way to keep the peace!
                  And, I know you had to post an example, but could we keep it a little more confidential next time we order production?

                  Looks like it's time for a SitzKrieg. Just as well, a little jabbing will get us used to the system.

                  At what rate do we get Manpower Points?

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Exorcist
                    ...And, I know you had to post an example, but could we keep it a little more confidential next time we order production?...
                    We'll be doing a re-boot on Saturday morning anyway. All teams should review their plans and think about submitting their directives for 9/39 and the 10/39 Production Cycle. We could knock them off this weekend and get rolling for real.

                    I know what folks have in mind so I could go with that but a quick note confirming this would be nice.

                    Originally posted by Exorcist
                    ...At what rate do we get Manpower Points?
                    All Prod. and Pers. points are collected each month in order to do production. As the prod. and pers. multiples go up so do the points collected.
                    The Purist

                    Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Russian Production

                      Soviet Production

                      The Russian system works pretty much like the German but there are some difference that need to be pointed out. Like the Germans the Red Army builds units that can act as cadres for other types of units or be deployed as they are. Cadres can be returned to the production system for rebuilding or even conversion to certain other types. The Soviet Union collects "Arms" Points and "Personnel" Points and uses them to produce units. Units are placed on the map and removed at "Training Centres".

                      The first difference is that Russian units are produced in groups of two to four units. They also have no limits on what can be spent. German "arms Centres" and "Training Centres" can be loaded onto to trains and shipped out of harms way when Germany invades. These centres can be re-established in other parts of European Russia or off-map in Siberia. They will be off-line for some time but at they will be safe(r).

                      Economic Disruption

                      Some time after the Red Army loses 85-115 units the Soviet economy will become disrupted for about five month greatly reducing Soviet production. It is because of this event that STAVKA needs to consider a savings plan for it production points once it has completed its historical expansion and deployments.

                      Production

                      In 10/39 the Soviet Union has a pool of 19 Arms Pts and 51 Pers Pts. Being at peace the Red Army will gain 6 Arms and 4 Pers points per cycle for new propduction. From this small beginning the Red Army will begin its expansion. Once invaded the Soviet Union's economy will kick into high and production will expand rapidly (less the effects of the econ. disruption mentioned above, of course).

                      So,... like the Germans the numbers displayed will read as # Arms Pts/# Pers Pts. As it is the first cyle of production of the war the Red Army has:

                      19/51 + 6/4 = 25/55

                      The Soviet union needs aircraft but they are expensive,... but you do get 2 APs for the cost of 15/1 and they take 3 cyles to build. Still the Red Air Force needs a minimum of three AP to meet its deployment limits. So we will build a pair this cycle

                      1 x AP Grp = 15/1 (arrive 13/39)

                      The production pool is thus reduced: 25/55 - 15/1 = 10/54

                      The Red Army decides to expend the balance of the pool on ground units and orders the following unit groups:

                      Three 1-4 Inf div groups. Each group costs 1/2 and produces 4 Soviet Rifle

                      3 x 1-4 Inf div groups at 1/2 = 3/6 (arrive 11/39)

                      The Red Army also orders up two Tank bde groups (4 brigades ea) at the cost 2/1 each.

                      2 x 2-5 Tank bde groups at 2/1 = 4/2 (arrive 1/40)

                      Finally, the Red Army order one group of Mech Inf bdes (4 bdes) which costs 3/1.

                      1 x 3-5 Mech bde group at 3/1 = 3/1 (arrive 1/40)

                      Summary

                      Since all available arms points are spent Soviet production is complete for this cycle. Net result is:

                      2 x AP (13/39)
                      12 x 1-4 Inf divs (11/39)
                      8 x 2-5 Tank bdes (1/40)
                      4 x 3-5 Mech bdes (1/40)

                      The Production Pool calculation went thus:

                      25/55 - (15/1 + 3/6 + 4/2 + 3/1) = 0/45

                      A pool of 45 Pers. points are left in the pool for later use.

                      Are there any questions before we re-boot and get going with an official game?
                      Last edited by The Purist; 25 Nov 09, 22:44.
                      The Purist

                      Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by The Purist View Post
                        Are there any questions before we re-boot and get going with an official game?
                        Yes . What is the quickest you know of that the Soviets have ever won in this game ? It will give us a target to try to beat .
                        How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                        Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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                        • #57
                          In the old game I made it to Berlin an December 1944 but the German made some pretty big errors. Is that possible in the new ramped-up game? Possible, but with AFD runaway advances are less likely to just steam roller in one direction or another.
                          Last edited by The Purist; 26 Nov 09, 13:31.
                          The Purist

                          Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            From the Briefing Room

                            AFD

                            This game uses a system called attrition to track units as they move and fight. For our purposes Attrition will mean the same as fatigue and disorganisation. We will use the term AFD when discussing this aspect of the game. The games scripted values were pretty harsh so I softened them somewhat to make units a bit more resilient but still effected by hard pushing.

                            In short, every time a units moves, fights, advances, retreats, exploits. etc., it will accrue AFD points. This is a percentage decrease in the combat capabilities of a unit until it becomes combat ineffective (a fragile). The only way to reduce AFD is to rest the units. Thus, in this game, units cannot continually attack, attack, attack for months on end and never suffer any ill effects. Units can rest in the front but the recovery there is less than if they are pulled from the line entirely.

                            Like the German army driving into Russia in July 1941 it quickly found its units fatigued, out of supply and reduced 50% or less of their capabilities. The same thing happened to the axis and allied troops moving backwards and forward through Libya, the Red Army advances of 1943 and 1944 and the allied charge form Normandy ot the German border. In all these cases the armies were forced to pause and rest and refit for weeks at a time while supply and maintenance caught up. The troops needed to rest.

                            So it is with the armies here.

                            You will receive AFD updates with the army reports so you can decide when to call a halt to operations or rest certain units.
                            The Purist

                            Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

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                            • #59
                              I was half joking . I'll be pleased if we make it to 1942 .
                              How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                              Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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                              • #60
                                Ready to start the real game?

                                If no has any objections I could re-start the game and get the first two weeks taken care of tonight. Tomorrow we could do the official production for 10/39 and carry on from there through the Sitzkrieg.

                                That will provide plenty of opportunities for Q&A.

                                Also,... the public update reports in the "Briefing Room" will usually be two more turns out of date. Some the screenies can give away too much info with "Fog of War" turned on so this will be a form of censorship. The briefings will be short and point form (the newspaper bit was a bit of an indulgence, not to be repeated).

                                You orders can be as specific or as loose as you like but I will need enough detail to get the jist of what it is your grand strategy entails.

                                Cheers.
                                The Purist

                                Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

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