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  • It's a ;itt;e frightening to see how easy it is for the Brits to eliminate the Italians.
    And all those Italians in France... who is making sure Italy does not get invaded? Maybe I shouldn't say anything!

    Okay, we need to use that chat line one of these days. I just need to know when, and how to make it work...

    Comment


    • Finessing the Italian Army

      I was going to PM Exo but I figured the entire OKW Team should be aware of the finesse required in using the Italian army (this is too large a post anyway). In short the Italians in Africa, left to their own devices, would be chewed to pieces within a few months by the much more powerful and mobile British units. This is pretty historical as we know that with the exception of the more specialised Italian divisions like Ariete, Trieste, Littorio, Pasubio, etc, the small Italian divisions packed it in after a relatively brief fight. The same is true in this game.

      The mass of the Italian army is made up of those wonderful 2 strength infantry divisions. These are just strong enough, if stacked together, to hold a position briefly and just weak enough to get into a lot of trouble if assistance is not at hand nearby. The Italians do possess the units to form two or three relatively mobile corps but they are fragile and lack replacement points if casualties are suffered. With two (later three) 4 strength armoured and 3 mech divs (3 strength) added to the two motor inf (2 strength) and two light arm’d bdes (1 strength) the Italians have currently deployed two mech corps (1 x 1-6 Lt Arm, 1 x 3-6 Mech Inf and 1 x 4-6 Arm div) and one motor corps (2 x 2-10 motor divs and 1 x 3-6 mech div), however these corps only add up to a strength of 8, 8 and 7 respectively. Had the allies reinforced Africa a little sooner some of these might already be dead.

      Another option is to concentrate the divisions into one main corps of two arm’d and two mech divs (strength 14) with the motor divs and third mech div forming a second weak corps (7 strength). The two light arm’d bdes are sent home and their place in Africa taken by two leg infantry divisions (the famous 2-4 inf div). This plan of deployment does cost the Italians some operational flexibility but adds some strength. Compare this to a British corps of 3 motor divs and a motor brigade (24 points in 1941) or a Britsh armoured corps of three divs and a bde (27 points in 1941) and you can see the danger to the Italian position in Africa. Enter the Germans.

      CWiE is quite generous in allowing the Germans to deploy a full 10 divisions in Africa ( 20 for the Italians). The choice for your team has been 4 Pz divisiosn (10 strength each), 4 motor inf divs (2 @ 7 and 2 @ 6 strength) and two leg inf divs (6 strength each). Of these one 7-10 and one 6-5 are still to be deployed (8 divs are currently in Africa). This has an aggregate of 78 strength points and can be deployed in many different ways but the usual method is to form two or three corps (compared to 23 points for three Italian corps). This is fine and works well if the British oblige the axis commanders by attacking the German units only,… but they seldom do. What you may wish to consider is whether or not it would be wise to “Corset Lace” any of the Italian corps by adding a German division or two.

      “Corset Lacing” is a sword which cuts both ways. It strengthens the Italian corps but at the cost of slowing the corps down to the speed of the fastest Italian unit (usual 6 move points). It also means that there would be fewer pure German corps on the map. Further, if the hex is attacked and the units reduced, it is easier to overrun the remnants as only the Italian armoured divs form cadres (battlegroups). “Corset Lacing” is one more thing for your 'Kesselring' to consider now that Pz Armee Africa is just about ready to enter the fight.
      Last edited by The Purist; 22 Dec 09, 23:04.
      The Purist

      Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

      Comment


      • Until we get some actual Ariete Divs up and running, this is how it will have to be-
        Two German Corps of 2 Panzer and two Motirized Divs each. The two German Infantry Divs will stiffen the Italian Infantry, not the best anvils for the much heavier Panzer-hammers, but so it goes.
        Yes, send the light mech units home, my hope is that they will grow up to be something better somday. WHat I really want is the two more 2-4s to take their places, giving us a better anvil. The remaining Italian mechanized divs for into one stack to work with either the Panzers or the Infantry as required.

        Shooting the Italian officer corps and replacing them all with NCOs would also be a good idea, but all things in their own time....

        Comment


        • Advancing on Tobruk

          The Deutche Afrika Korps, 57th Pz Corps and Italian XXI Mech Corps have struck out across the desert throughout 1/41 and are approaching Tobruk from the southwest. Meanwhile, along the coast road the Italian XXth and XXVth Corps, each with a German infantry divisiosn attached have been marching east from Benghazi and will be approaching Tobruk from the northwest. The British have been executing a staged withdrawal all month but it is expected that they will make a stand at Tobruk.

          The only setback experienced by the army group in Africa was the loss of 5 German and 2 Italian AP for only 3 British in air battles over the desert.

          Maps will be posted tomorrow. It is assumed that OKW wants to push the attack on Tobruk once the supplies have arrived to support the advance.

          There was some bad news in 1/41 as well. Rhodes has been invaded by two commonwealth divisions. The garrison will fight to the last but will not likely survive more than another week.

          At sea the Kriegsmarine lost a wolf pack and the British gained extra reinforcements for 2/41. The Admiralty has assigned a SURF point (Graff Spee, Admiral Scheer, Emden, Karlsrue plus their destroyer escorts) to convoy raiding to help off set the loss for the next month.

          The war against the Yugoslav partisans continues and a full Cadre was eliminated in a campaign that included German armour and artillery as well as Italian and Bulgarian infantry. The first success in the partisan war.
          Last edited by The Purist; 22 Dec 09, 23:02.
          The Purist

          Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

          Comment


          • Re; the desert- you assume correctly.

            While the loss of Rhodes is galling, particularly since the Brits are doing just what I wanted to do to Cyprus and getting away with it... it is still nice to know that those two Divs will not be bothering Rommel. I would like that 50% of Italy's submarine fleet to make life lonely for those men.

            BTW- what is Italy building, and what is it capable of making in the future?

            Can the Wehrmacht use Yougoslavia as a "working up" area? You know, use the Partisans to bloody green units and upgrade their combat efficiency?

            Might be a good place for those little mechanized units to earn their spurs, and then move on.

            The Battle of the Atlantic is not in my sphere, but Im starting to worry. What would it take to get the Vichy fleet involved, on our side?

            Comment


            • I approve, and who does control the Unterseebootesflotte?
              Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

              Comment


              • 2/40 - The Push on Tobruch

                Tac,... the Uboats are anybody's but there is nothing to do. They simply attack every month in the hope of delaying allied reinforcements. As time advances it requires more and more U-boats to threaten the allied reinforcements. Of course, the more U-Boats Germany has the better are the odds of effecting the US/CW forces. ASW abilities increase with time also. Just as in the OTL eventually the Germans will be overwhelmed, Uboats are sunk faster than they can be produced but Germany *must* fight the U-Boat war. To ignore would allow a flood of allied reinforcement far sooner that would otherwise occur.

                Ok,... Here is a screen shot of the advance on Tobruch. The supply line will be pushed forward shortly and the army have a go at the 8th Army. This will be a scrap so expect casualties. The two infantry corps up north will block the rout west while the three mobile corpsstrike from the SW. The two Italian motor divs will screen the open desert against light CW forces.

                <<The Approach to Tobruch>>

                Attached Files
                The Purist

                Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

                Comment


                • Beautiful, that's just what I was looking to make happen!

                  Re; U-boats
                  I think we need to exceed the historical effort, and put far more into that then what we have so far... IMHO. If this game gets to the point where our boats are being over-whelmed, it has gone on so long that we are bound to loose.

                  How does Saturday or Sunday sound for a live-chat conference? We need to formulate a coherent, over-all strategy and divide up the responsibilities.

                  Comment


                  • Saturday sounds fine for me, though I still need an invite to the social group.

                    And I agree, we need to completely exceed the historical level of Uboat and cruiser warfare. Though it can become hideously expensive to do so, I would recommend sortieing the fleet as much as practicable to interdict shipping as well. We have quite a few excellent heavy cruisers and battlecruisers, and I don't believe they should be wasted at all. Not to mention that it will force the Brits to use their carriers and battleships to escort sub-hunters, because destroyers, frigates, and light cruisers just don't stand a chance against the bigger boys.
                    Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

                    Comment


                    • Tac,

                      The game abstracts the naval war but it is still very workable. The Germans do not build cruisers, or carriers or battleships but rather they build U-Boat points, Surf points, transport points and amphibious points. Each represents and bestows a certain capacity on the Germans for use in the "High Seas" (the North Sea, Norwegian Sea and Atlantic Ocean). A surf pt may be assigned each month as a 'raider and counts as two U-boat points but it is only normally done when it means a shift on the U-Boat attack table. Example below.

                      It is 3/41 and for the Germans to be on the "balanced" table (odds of delaying reinforcements are the same as doubling them, 1/6) they need 11-15 UBoat points. The table looks like this:

                      DR---------- Result
                      1------------ D(elay)
                      2------------ A1 (Advance 1)
                      3------------ A1
                      4------------ A1
                      5------------ A1
                      6------------ A2 (Advance 2)

                      A1 allows for normal monthly allied reinforcements, A2 allows the reinforcments to be advance two months. Right now the Germans have 10 U-Boats (iirc) which drops the attack table by one (no chance of delay and an 1/3 chance of A2. Thus the Surf is sent out to make up the difference until another U-Boat pt arrives (currently being built at a rate of one per month, it can be increased at the cost of army or air pt construction).

                      Surfs are more vulnerable to the monolithic RN that is out there in the high seas. The U-Boat attrition table for the same year and quantity of U-Boats looks like this (based on Germany's 10 U-Boats):

                      DR---------- Result
                      1------------ 1 (sunk)
                      2------------ n/a
                      3------------ n/a
                      4------------ n/a
                      5------------ n/a
                      6------------ n/a

                      But,... because a Surf counts as two U-boats the attrition table looks like this (11-15 U-Boats):

                      DR---------- Result
                      1------------ 1 (sunk)
                      2------------ 1
                      3------------ n/a
                      4------------ n/a
                      5------------ n/a
                      6------------ n/a

                      If a Surf is used and a loss suffered the Surf will be sunk first.
                      UBoats, Surfs and Amphibs all cost 10 prod. points and take 12 months to build. Transports are a bit less (about 8 points). Germany can spend a maximum of 30% of its production on naval points per monthly production cycle
                      The Purist

                      Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

                      Comment


                      • Battle lines in the desert rarely conform to the linear patterns seen in Europe and the newest assault launched by the Italo-German army group in Africa is no different. The screen shot shows the action just after a British counterattack drove back a German pz corps south of Tobruk. A pair of reduced divisions have been moved to the rear for rebuilding while more infantry are coming up from the rear. The battle continues into 3/41.

                        <<Desert Melee>>



                        Does OKW require my presence in the strategy meeting (not sure how it will work), I use an iMac for internet stuff btw.
                        Attached Files
                        The Purist

                        Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

                        Comment


                        • While we don't need to be frivolous with our SURF points, I'd say that since we know we cannot take the RN in a stand-up fight, and that we will never be able to do so, we should use SURF points a little more liberally than historical to interdict shipping and generally be a pain the RN's collective ass.

                          Also, how do Anti-Air (flak particularly) operations work against Air Points? I want to make sure that I'm doing all I can to maximize the effectiveness of the Atlantic Wall against Allied Bomber incursions.

                          A quick primer on how to use APs for Air to Air and Air to Ground would also be appreciated if it isn't already in the previously posted notes..

                          Sorry about all the questions, but I'd like to master my availible options so that I can provide the best service possible to the Reich.

                          Herr Tac
                          Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

                          Comment


                          • OKW Primer

                            Originally posted by TacCovert4
                            While we don't need to be frivolous with our SURF points, I'd say that since we know we cannot take the RN in a stand-up fight, and that we will never be able to do so, we should use SURF points a little more liberally than historical to interdict shipping and generally be a pain the RN's collective ass.
                            Surfs will be used when the opportunity to improve the tables presents itself. To a raider out without the 'column shift' is potentially wasteful as any losses will come from the Surf (which has twice the fighting power of a U-Boat). Going into 4/41 the Germans will have 11 Uboats, since a Surf will not make a difference here, one will not be sent. Precious assets that need to be protected for when their use could make a difference

                            Originally posted by TacCovert4
                            ...Also, how do Anti-Air (flak particularly) operations work against Air Points? I want to make sure that I'm doing all I can to maximize the effectiveness of the Atlantic Wall against Allied Bomber incursions....
                            Ok,... Flak pts are place on industrial targets (mfg and resource centres) and perhaps a few rail line choke points for use against allied strategic bombing attacks (max 6 pts per hex). They are a bit expensive but as the allied bomber threat grows so does their effectiveness. They also add to the ground defence of a hex and do not count towards stacking. Thus a hex defended by 4 x 6-5 inf divs with 6 flak would have a 30 defence.

                            Initially it will seem Flak are not that effective but as their numbers grow along with the strength of the allied bomber force, their effectiveness does increase. They can go from a 'slight' nuisance to 'troublesome'.

                            Originally posted by TacCovert4
                            A quick primer on how to use APs for Air to Air and Air to Ground would also be appreciated if it isn't already in the previously posted notes..
                            The tactical air war is also abstracted but also works very well.

                            Air Points (APs) are assigned to one of three fronts where they can fly one of of four missions, Air Superiority, Ground Support/Interdiction, Port Suppression, Anti-Shipping.

                            Air superiority is pretty basic. All the APs of the two sides are matched up against each other and paired off. If, for example, the allies assign 25 APs and Germans 20 APs to the west front 20 from each side will be paired off into 15 x 1:1 fights with the extra five allied points making 5 x 2:1 attacks. The computer then crunches the numbers and spits out the results.

                            In effect, 1:1 will yield a 1/6 chance of a kill, 2:1 a 1/3 chance, 3:1 a 1/2 chance and so on. No attacks can be 2:1 until all APs are attacked at 1:1, no 3:1s until all can be attacked at 2:1 and so on.

                            Ground Support adds +1 to an attack,... doesn't seem like much but it can make a big difference. It is almost like a column shift on the CRT. airunits assigned to ground support but not used can then be used for ground interdiction. Interdiction increases the cost to pass through a hex for ground units and units moving by rail. Enough interdiction can literally choke movement behind the enemy front lines.

                            Port suppression is used to knock out minor ports and beachhead supply sources and reduce major ports to minor ports (effecting supply status). Up to five APs can attack a single port. ports get to shoot back and can knock down attacking APs (chance is 1/6).

                            Anti-Shipping is carried out by APs assigned to port suppression, During enemy sea movement phases any units moving by sea within enemy air range can be attacked. If hit, they are reduced to cadres or destroyed if they do not form cadres.

                            Beginning in 1942 the Germans may transfer up 25% of their available APs per front to "Strategic Interceptors" for use against allied monthly strategic bombing attacks (the amount increases with time). The available interceptors must be deployed "within escort range" and "beyond escort range". Those within escort range can attack the escorts and bombers and be attacked back by the same. Those assigned outside escort range will only have to contend with the bombers. The allied escort range increases with time, of course.
                            Last edited by The Purist; 24 Dec 09, 11:48.
                            The Purist

                            Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

                            Comment


                            • Ok, next question.....For Purist

                              Do we know how much Allied Shipping is moving within range of German APs in the West?

                              Second Question.....For Purist

                              Do AA positions only count if the bombers attack that hex, or will they still fire if the bombers only have to fly OVER that hex.

                              Third Question.....For Tsar

                              What kind of budget do I have for the following Items. If you could I'd like 2 approx. figures, 1 for immediately, and 1 for late '41

                              Forts
                              AAA
                              APs
                              Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by TacCovert4
                                Do we know how much Allied Shipping is moving within range of German APs in the West?
                                The allies never fly within range of naval-air attack. Nor does the Axis,... not worth the risk.

                                Originally posted by TacCovert4
                                Do AA positions only count if the bombers attack that hex, or will they still fire if the bombers only have to fly OVER that hex.
                                Just the target hex.

                                Originally posted by TacCovert4
                                Third Question.....For Tsar

                                What kind of budget do I have for the following Items. If you could I'd like 2 approx. figures, 1 for immediately, and 1 for late '41

                                Forts
                                AAA
                                APs
                                tsar can answer the economic question but over all German AP production is currently running at about 36% of total economic output. Between the fall of France and 4/41 the expansion of the army has taken precedence.

                                New directives will need to come from OKW.
                                The Purist

                                Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

                                Comment

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