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  • #76
    I still have a couple weeks of real-time RL to deal with.

    I will have a detailed plan for Italy in about 24 hours. Meanwhile, the operations I just told Tsar about ought to kick off.

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    • #77
      I've forgotten, we are using the Africa korp rules aren't we?
      Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedy. -- Ernest Benn

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      • #78
        We are using "Malta/Tobruk" and the Germans need their own MSUs (four to reach Tobruk). I have found that letting Germany use Italian MSUs is too powerful a variant. The axis then have a greater 'truck fleet' than the US and Britain.
        The Purist

        Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by The Purist View Post
          We are using "Malta/Tobruk" and the Germans need their own MSUs (four to reach Tobruk). I have found that letting Germany use Italian MSUs is too powerful a variant. The axis then have a greater 'truck fleet' than the US and Britain.

          In that case we need to make about 3 more (total of 6) so that Excorcist can have fun in the sand. Since we both know that taking Malta is a fantasy.
          Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedy. -- Ernest Benn

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          • #80
            Originally posted by tsar View Post
            In that case we need to make about 3 more (total of 6) so that Excorcist can have fun in the sand. Since we both know that taking Malta is a fantasy.
            Speaking of fantasies... keeping a couple of Divisions plus 250,000 civilians fed on that weird little rock... how many guys have they packed in there, anyhow?

            Screw it, Italian subs have two operating areas- within 200 miles of Gibraltar and Suez. Malta is for bombers and surface ships. We see a periscope anywhere near that island, we bomb it for a few hours.
            I would love to get a couple of BBs close enough to Valletta to make it look like Pompeii during the eruption, but that can wait.
            Once the Med is closed at both ends, Malta won't matter anyhow.

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            • #81
              Push on or Hold the Line?

              A recce sweep by the two light arm'd brigades and air has spotted what is thought to be six divisions and at least one MSU on the Libyan border east of Bardia. The southern most division is thought to be armoured but this is not confirmed. Currently CW Inf divs have a 6 combat strength, their arm'd divs a 7 strength, so attacking (consult the the CRT in the Reporting thread) could result in as much damage to the Italian army as the CW.

              Two German divs are in Cirenaica but until the MSU pipeline is established from Tripoli the Germans are tethered to the Benghasi area (not necessarily a bad thing). A German Luftlande div has reinforced the Italians at Tripoli so it is safe from allied attack for the moment.

              What are you orders fro the Tobruk area? Push the attack forward or hold the Tobruk line?


              Attached Files
              The Purist

              Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by The Purist View Post

                What are you orders fro the Tobruk area? Push the attack forward or hold the Tobruk line?
                It is difficult to say ATM, is tis the very first contact we have had? No other combat?

                Dangling an MSU like that is criminally stupid, or a trap.
                Is that blue dot at Bardia indicating something, like a supply base?
                If you can answer me soon, I will have operational orders for you.

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                • #83
                  Bardia is a minor port but not usable as a supply port for the axis (Alexandria is a touch closer than is Benghasi). Of course, its not much use to the allies either since the rail line to Sidi Barrani is just over the frontier.
                  The Purist

                  Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

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                  • #84
                    Okay, orders soon to follow....
                    let me know how it goes.
                    Last edited by The Exorcist; 17 Dec 09, 01:05.

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by The Purist View Post
                      We are using "Malta/Tobruk" and the Germans need their own MSUs (four to reach Tobruk). I have found that letting Germany use Italian MSUs is too powerful a variant. The axis then have a greater 'truck fleet' than the US and Britain.
                      I see what you mean, but there is a compromise between the two extremes. How about a temporary emergency situation- if one or the other looses their MSU, they could used an allies MSU for a month.

                      Can't the Americans and Brits use each other's either? And.... huh, guess we never have to worry about Western troops showing up in Russia!

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                      • #86
                        Desert Skirmishing - III and IV/11/40

                        First things first.

                        Romania, Hungary and Bulgaria have entered the war as axis allies. Hungarian divisions on en route to Poland to take up garrison duties, the Bulgarians are moving to occupy parts of southern Yugoslavia. The Russians have annexed Bessarabia and the Romanian army has redeployed to the west.

                        Ok,... so much for side shows.

                        The Italian Xth Army struck over the frontier as ordered and pushed the CW division and MSU backwards but did not kill them. This triggered an allied counterattack that, in turn, pushed the Italian troops back into Libya. The Italians have committed 14 divisions and brigades to the attack and have discovered some 11 CW divisions and brigades in Egypt. Amongst these are three divisions and a brigade that were seen in France earlier in the year.

                        The second attempt to push the allies back again failed to destroy any and the fatigue amongst the Italian infantry is growing (mech units are doing better). The CW are also pushing armour out into the desert flank to the south. The map shows the situation just prior to the axis "exploitation phase",... the 1-6 Lt Arm unit can still beat a retreat,... and the front commanders are suggesting that, "we've made our point, but things are getting pretty hot out here." A retreat back to Tobruk is suggested. The axis air force in Africa is dominant (no sign of allied APs) and interdiction can definitely slow any allied pursuit.

                        The German supply line will reach El Agheila in about two weeks. There are now four German combat divisions in Africa (3 x 10-8 Pz and a 7-10 motor, the 8-8 was sent home for conversion), all based near Benghasi and its minor port.

                        What would you like to do? Stand and continue the frontier battle or withdraw to Tobruk?

                        <<The War in the Desert Heats Up>>

                        Attached Files
                        The Purist

                        Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Balkan Folley

                          "Balkan Folley"

                          Strategic Review 0/12/40

                          Germany -

                          The German army is rested and in the midst of an expansion program aimed for completion by the spring of 1941 and the return of good campaigning weather. The current strength of the army is:

                          10 x 10-8 Pz Divs; three (15th, 21st and Herm. Goering) are in Libya near Benghasi and fourth (10th) is en route to southern Italy via rail from Germany. The remaining six are in German standing by for deployment. There are a further nine Pz Divs in production with a possible three more than can be converted from Pz Gr divisions by spring for a total of twenty-two.

                          5 x 8-8 Pz Gr Divs; two of these (Gross Deutchland and 1st) are standing by for deployment, three more are being readied for conversion to Pz divs as noted above and there is a further three in production and four more planned for a total of 9 available by spring (perhaps ten if production capacity is available).

                          1 x 7-10 Motor Div; the 90th Light Div is currently in Libya, a second 7-10 is in production and is earmarked for Africa when it becomes available.

                          3 x 6-10 Motor Div; two (2nd and 13th) are en route to Italy for deployment to Africa while the third (16th) is in OKW reserve. Three more are planned for deployment in the spring.

                          68 x 6-5 Infantry Divs; thirteen divisions are deployed in France with ten covering the Channel and Britanny ports, Paris and in reserve at Tours, the remainder of the garrison in France is made up of Italian divisions. Forty-nine divisions are deployed in Germany and Poland, while four are on anti-Partisan duty in Yugoslavia. The remaining two divisions are in southern Italy waiting on transport to Africa as directed by OKW. There are nine more divisions in production but some of these will be converted to Pz Gr and Motor Inf units. Finally there are 25 cadres either waiting conversion to full divisions or in production. By spring there should be some 110 or more infantry divisions available on all fronts.

                          2 x 4-5 Air Landing Divs; both divisions are currently ready or getting ready for operations on the southern front.

                          4 x 2-5 Parachute Reg’ts; all four are currently ready for operations on the southern front.

                          6 x 1-5-1 Static Divs; these are garrisoning Denmark, Holland and Belgium.

                          MSU’s; four available in Africa or awaiting shipment to Africa. Two more in production with approximately one being produced every two months.

                          IRPs; 18 in the east.

                          MRPs; 4 in the south.

                          Air Points; there are currently 51 APs available to the LW but only 3 ATPs. In production are 26 more APs and 11 ATPs.

                          Navy; There are nine U-Boats deployed supported by three Surf Pts. One Surf has been assigned to surface raiding as this may provide a better chance of delaying allied reinforcements at this juncture.

                          Italy

                          The Italian army is currently deployed in France Yugoslavia, Sicily and Libya. Only those elements in eastern Libya are currently engaged except for those divisions in southern Yugoslavia trying to dig the Partisans out of the mountains. The situation in Africa is deterioratin and a retreat from Tobruk may become necessary if the British push their advantage. However, with the strong German presence near Benghasi the British should not be able to take all of Cirenaica. Replacement for Italian infantry in Africa are plentiful. The only weak point is Rhodes, it is isolated and the British could invade and take the island with little effort.

                          2 x 4-6 Arm’d Divs; Ariete and Centauro are currently withdrawing to the Tobruk area with the rest of Xth Army after the border battles. A third division will not arrive before 13/41

                          3 x 3-6 Mech Inf Divs; all three are operating with the Arm’d and Motor divs in eastern Libya.

                          3 x 1-6 Lt Arm’d Bdes; two are still defying the British army in Africa while the third is standing by in Italy awaiting the inevitable call.

                          1 x 3-4 Parachute Div; this divisions two reg’ts are ready for use on the southern front.

                          2 x 2-10 Motor Inf Divs; both these divs are operating in the open desert in eastern Libya. A third motor div will arrive in 8/41.

                          46 x 2-4 Infantry Divs; eleven divisions are in France, seven divisions are in Yugoslavia, eighteen divisions are in Sicily or Sardinia and ten divisions are in Libya (seven in the east, three at Tripoli).

                          2 x 1-10 Motor Inf Bdes; both are in Yugoslavia. A third brigade will arrive in 3/41.

                          23 x 1-4 Coastal/Garrison Divs; one is isolated in Rhodes, seven are in France, two are in Sardinia and the remaining thirteen are in Yugoslavia.

                          IRPs; 5 available in the south with one more arriving in 3/41, 8/41 and 13/41.

                          MRPs; none available but one will be arriving in both 3/41 and 13/41.

                          Air Points; there are currently 17 Italian APs on the southern front with two arriving 3/41 and 8/41 and a fifth arriving in 13/41. Together with the navy the air force is keeping Malta isolated. Heavily reinforced by the German LW there are plenty of extra air points to interdict the British ground and naval movement within range in Africa.

                          The Minor Axis

                          The recent arrival of the Bulgarian, Romanian and Hungarian armies both eases and complicates Germany’s position in the Balkans and facing Russia. German resources in Romania are vulnerable and a Red Army attack on Romania could not be stopped by the Romanian army unaided. Hungary’s army will relieve German garrison troops in Poland and provide some light cavalry and motor brigades for Russia.

                          Bulgarian Army – 10 x 24 Infantry Divs, 2 1-10 Motor Bdes, 2 x 1-3 Cav Divs. All currently moving into southern Yugoslavia for anti-partisan operations.

                          Hungarian Army – 12 x 2-4 Infantry Divs moving into Poland, 2 x 1-10 Motor Bdes and 2 x 1-3 Cav Bdes moving to Russian frontier in Czechoslovakia.

                          Romanian Army – 14 x 2-4 Infantry Divs, 3 x 1-3 Cav Divs and 2 x 1-6 Arm’d Divs currently defending their eastern border with Russia.

                          “Balkan Folly” - The Plan

                          Concerning Greece.

                          As can be seen by the map the Greek army is deployed against an attack from the north and there is no way to take Athens by coup de main. The Greek army has 12 first line 3-4 infantry divisions, 5 second line 2-4 infantry divisions, 4 third line 1-4 infantry divisions and 2 x 1-3 cavalry bdes on the mainland. On Crete is another 3-4 and 1-4 infantry divisions.

                          <<Greek Defences>>



                          Mainland Greece will surrender when Thesalonike and Athens are occupied. Crete (and Greek units there) will not surrender until the island is occupied. The axis will inherit the Greek naval tranport point for the Aegean once the control Greece. The allied naval transport capacity can extend into the Aegean.

                          During the winter months it will not be possible to reach Thesalonike in less than two weeks and it could take 12-16 weeks to reach Athens. The terrain is rough and there are quite a few rivers. In fair weather the German panzer and grenadier divisions have much better mobility and higher attack strength. British reinforcements of Crete should be considered a certainty and reinforcement of the mainland a high probability. The bottleneck of terrain leading to Athens will likely mean a long drawn out affair through the winter months. A certain amount of evacuation of Greek units to Crete should be expected. If Barbarossa is to be delayed or cancelled this offensive is possible but likely to be costly and time consuming.

                          Troops can begin to move to jump of points immediately.

                          Concerning Turkey

                          Turkey is a pro-axis neutral that is currently providing two of Germany’s 21 resource points. The political point cost to invade would cost 10 points and a conquest would regain only 3. More importantly, at present the Germans have 20 Mfg centres and 21 resource centres so the factories are operating at capacity. The loss of the Turkish resource centres will mean the reduction to 19resource points and one Mfg centre going idle. This equates to about a 4.5% drop in production points. Turkish defenses facing Europe are not weak but the units are fairly static. Much like Greece the winter weather complicates any attack at the present and the required strength to attack Turkey will require the diversion of significant ground forces over a period of six to eight weeks.

                          The Turkish army consists of 20 x 2-5-1 static divisions, 6 x 3-4 infantry divs, 3 x 2-3 Cav divs. 15 of the static divs are deployed in the west of the country while the remaining 14 divisions are deployed in the centre and east. Turkey can rebuild one static division per week and surrenders when Ankara is occupied and there are no Turkish units inside Turkey.

                          <<Western Turkey>>



                          Current Vichy status would prevent the British from entering Turkey via the southern railway. However, there are two good ports in southern Turkey near the Syrian border that can easily be accessed by the RN. The British could also choose to invade Syria to remove the blockage to access by rail as there is very little in the way of French troops in the colony. This would cost the allies politically and likely bring in Vichy France on the side of the Axis so it is debatable if this action would be taken unless the southern ports were threatened.

                          <<Central Turkey>>



                          Should the USSR take great offense to the invasion and enter the war their divisions can enter Turkey via Leninakan and by sea across the Black Sea. There is currently a manned military district (though small) on the Turkish-Soviet border. The Soviet Union would certainly see any invasion of Turkey as a great threat to their southern flank. A Soviet entry into the war would cost Germany another resource point and a further 4.5% drop in production.

                          Other than the immediate area west of Instanbul most of Turkey is rough or mountainous terrain. The Instabul position is a definite bottleneck and Turkish/Allied/Russian troops there would be very difficult to dislodge during the winter months even with airborne support and air superiority. The invasion forces have no choice but to follow the single railway line from Bulgaria and Greece and would require the use of RRUs and perhaps a pair of MSUs. Like Greece, if this option is chosen it is possible but the opening phases would be slower and costlier than an attack in milder weather. It should be noted that central Turkey is in the "severe" weather zone and is much like the USSR.

                          “Balkan Folly” – Summary

                          A daring proposal to be sure. The attack on Greece and Turkey is definitely possible but at high strategic risk. The invasion of Greece is required first and it would require moving the proposed troops immediately so that the invasion could begin within 4 to 6 weeks. The troops for the Turkish attack should follow immediately and could be in place in time to attack in 1/41.

                          If “Balkan Folly” is adopted it will absorb at least some 32-36 infantry divisions and as many as 10-12 Pz and 5-6 Pz Gr divs plus significant airborne forces. The current pool of IRP and MRPs would be consumed quicker than could be replaced which means sending divisions back to Germany for rebuilding or a slow rebuild rate at the front. The other option is to reduce the scale of army expansion and concentrate on maintaining the army that exists, expanding as available points allow.

                          The supporting air forces are strong but ATPs for airborne operation are lacking and even in two months there will be a shortage.

                          The plan becomes much easier to execute if delayed until the spring of 1941.

                          Much depends on the reaction of the Commonwealth and the USSR.
                          Attached Files
                          Last edited by The Purist; 18 Dec 09, 22:45.
                          The Purist

                          Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by The Purist View Post
                            "Balkan Folley"
                            Okay for now just build up, we will almost certainly jump on Greece, at least, come spring.

                            While the winter passes if there is any surplus production build some forts for the Eastern front. Personally I don't see any reason to attack Russia. They will stay weaker then us until they decide to attack us, which should be 1942 at the earliest, while we just, keep getting stronger.

                            Once forts become available build them on river crossings and behind rivers. Set up kill zones so that any Russian advance can be channeled and destroyed.

                            The Pz gr divisions should be sent to France as a quick reaction force against any invasion.
                            Last edited by Tsar; 19 Dec 09, 01:23.
                            Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedy. -- Ernest Benn

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                            • #89
                              I'm surprised the Italians made a second attack after the MSU got away. Foolish, but at least they have spirit.

                              Time to fall back to the best defensive location they can find, hang on to Tobruk and our own MSUs, and wait for the Germans to get into the game. Let the armor take the pressure off the infantry until they recover.

                              Turkey too?
                              That's a bit much, even for me. Tsar and I need to have a little meeting before things go that far.

                              Is it really impossible to reinforce Rhodes, by any means whatsoever? I want some airpower there. Can't Paras be flown in, or some MTBs be based there?

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
                                I'm surprised the Italians made a second attack after the MSU got away. Foolish, but at least they have spirit.

                                Time to fall back to the best defensive location they can find, hang on to Tobruk and our own MSUs, and wait for the Germans to get into the game. Let the armor take the pressure off the infantry until they recover.

                                Turkey too?
                                That's a bit much, even for me. Tsar and I need to have a little meeting before things go that far.

                                Yup, Turkey. Turkey opens a rail line from Berlin all the way to the Egyptian/Libyan border.

                                Plus it allows us to go to Iraq. Which let’s us get the Kurkit oil fields and increases our resources. We also put ourselves along the southern edge of the Caucus Mountains and in easy reach of Russia’s oil fields.

                                However I am willing to consider the possibility that Russia would look on an invasion of Turkey as a serious threat to their security and move to block it with a declaration of war against us. This would of course be counter productive to the long term objective of keeping Russia out of this war so that we are only facing the Western allies.


                                Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
                                Is it really impossible to reinforce Rhodes, by any means whatsoever? I want some airpower there. Can't Paras be flown in, or some MTBs be based there?
                                Rhodes is in the Eastern Med, which is completely controlled by the RN. The only way to re-enforce it is to gain control of Alexandria.
                                Para’s could be flown in (actually no they can’t it is to far from a supplied hex) -but-since it is out of supply they would die as soon as they landed.
                                There is no such thing as MBT’s in the game.
                                Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedy. -- Ernest Benn

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