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Decisive Campaigns: Barbarossa - Off Topic Discussion

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  • Decisive Campaigns: Barbarossa - Off Topic Discussion

    Thought I should include one of these to allow everyone to speak their mind on anything non-game related.

    I think I'd start things off by asking for recommendations for books on Operation Barbarossa. Any personal favorites out there?

  • #2
    I'd say one could do worse than starting with When Titans Clashed, by Glantz and House.
    Michele

    Comment


    • #3
      Not really sure if this is the right place since it's not entirely OT, move it if needed.

      Historically the Germans, imho, did not lose the war on the battlefield but in the rear,

      they failed to fully mobilize their economy for war before it was too late, they should have done so before the invasion, latest when the attack started.

      By comparison the Soviets kicked into war economy immediately and consequently were able not only to replace their loses, which were relatively larger the Germans', but actually build up their forces while taking heavy losses and retreating (or rather being pushed back)

      This enabled them to shove fresh armies in front of the advancing Germans and turn the tide.

      I suspect the game models this and allows the player to remedy it to some degree via the choice menus which seem to address many issues that would normally not be decided on by army generals.

      If we want to "do better" than the historical scenario, I suggest this is the way to go, since the German performance in a tactical sense, as it historically happened is hard to improve upon for amateurs, and ultimately was not to be decisive.

      @Michele and GMan

      PS: I'll be gone tomorrow, 'till Monday - do you want me to PM orders to DoD now, or do delegate the responsibility to one or both of you and give you a day more...
      Lambert of Montaigu - Crusader.

      Bolgios - Mercenary Game.

      Comment


      • #4
        OT - to Snowygerry: see PM.
        Michele

        Comment


        • #5
          Copy of my PM - may be of interest to others...

          Well if you hadn't made a thread labelled off-topic, I might not have thought of it

          We've been focusing on the tactical/operational side, but a lot of these pop-ups are actually political/economic decisions - so I suspect the game is trying to "tell us something" ...

          What we really need is one giant pop-up:

          "Put the entire German economy on a war footing"

          historically that did not happen until '43 or something so I doubt that will be possible, but I suspect a similar effect can be achieved by carefully studying the effects of all options offered.
          Lambert of Montaigu - Crusader.

          Bolgios - Mercenary Game.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
            Copy of my PM - may be of interest to others...
            The question is whether we'll be offered a chance to make decisions concerning the overall German economy any time soon. Funk is in the cast of non-playing characters, and a couple of issues have in fact already come up. But it seems we depend on the game offering us the possibility to decide, we can't act on our own initiative.

            That said, I'm not so sure we have all the leeway Speer's memoirs would lead us to believe. Sure, Hitler believed the war would be over quickly, and sure, in 1941 the factories were not yet using all the manpower they used later, and yes, just by recruiting more women earlier that could be boosted quickly - but did those factories have the production lines, and raw materials, and power? I have some doubts about that. I suspect there wasn't just a lack of political will and foresight, but also some practical actual bottlenecks.
            Michele

            Comment


            • #7
              I know this is the Off Topic discussion, but I had to post in one place that there is a delay on turns this week - I've been moving around a lot and my schedule is backed up, so I'm going to delay the due date to next weekend so I have time to give everyone a proper video and can respond in full.

              Sorry for the delay, Generals, but things should be back on track soon.

              Comment


              • #8
                No need to apologize, with the amount of detail and info to be taken into account, more time is always welcome.

                Thanks for doing all this.
                Lambert of Montaigu - Crusader.

                Bolgios - Mercenary Game.

                Comment


                • #9
                  No problem, more intel is welcome. It would be nice to see the values of the units.
                  Michele

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    No prob DoD!
                    "We have no white flag."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Okay!

                      Pruitt
                      Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                      Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                      by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        For those wondering - like me - if the fuel situation on the eastern front deteriorated as fast as is did in our game, this may be of interest :

                        http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...4&postcount=11

                        We may have made a serious mistake to keep the blitzkrieg option "on" and thus expended more fuel than the Germans did historically -

                        Presumably the idea is to only turn it on *after* achieving a breakthrough ?
                        Lambert of Montaigu - Crusader.

                        Bolgios - Mercenary Game.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
                          For those wondering - like me - if the fuel situation on the eastern front deteriorated as fast as is did in our game, this may be of interest :

                          http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...4&postcount=11

                          We may have made a serious mistake to keep the blitzkrieg option "on" and thus expended more fuel than the Germans did historically -

                          Presumably the idea is to only turn it on *after* achieving a breakthrough ?
                          No, I don't think so. Remember how DoD told us that we are having a 1:10 casualty ratio and that some of the enemy pockets containing several whole divisions fell for a ridiculous butcher's bill to us. That's what Blitzing does. Note I didn't write "kill" but "casualty" ratio - most of the men in those pockets historically just surrendered.
                          Slower advance might not have created pockets in the first place, and in any case it would have left the enemy time to overcome the shock, reorganize, dig in etc.
                          It was worth Blitzing in the first turns for as long as the fuel situation allowed us. IMHO.
                          Michele

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            But what is the exact nature of the "Blitzkrieg posture" ?

                            Does it allow more movement only ?

                            Attack-move-attack combos that might not otherwise be possible ?

                            Does it grant a combat bonus ?

                            One thing is for sure it costs 2000 fuel per turn so we'll have to use it sparingly...

                            After all as you point out "Blitzkrieg" is not very well defined even in a historical sense - I'd like to know exactly what the game considers it to be.

                            If we could for example allocate the same 2000 fuel to specific units instead of distributing them over the entire force - more efficient use might be made of them.
                            Last edited by Snowygerry; 18 Mar 16, 09:36.
                            Lambert of Montaigu - Crusader.

                            Bolgios - Mercenary Game.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Keep in mind guys we have a hard row to hoe! I just got in a week ago this book: Operation Barbarossa, the Complete Organizational and Statistical Analysis and Military Simulation. In the period between the start of the Invasion until the end of December, 1941, the Red Army activated the following:
                              11 new Front HQ's; 41 new Army HQ's; 182 Rifle Divisions; 43 Militia Rifle Divisions; 8 Tank Divisions; 3 Mechanized Divisions; 1 Mountain Cavalry Division; 1 Mountain Rifle Division; 50 Cavalry Divisions; 3 NKVD Rifle Divisions; 3 NKVD Motor Rifle Divisions; 62 Tank Brigades; 55 Rifle Brigades; 31 Airborne Brigades; 11 Naval Rifle Brigades; 21 Naval Rifle Brigades (?); 20 NKVD Rifle Regiments

                              Plus MANY Combat Support units!

                              We had better keep up that 10X1 kill ratio!

                              Pruitt
                              Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                              Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                              by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                              Comment

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