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Deus Vult Deux

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  • Deus Vult Deux

    (In homage to Khryses' efforts in this vein which inspired and have heavily influenced my own)


    The Emperor of Constantinople has long been requesting aid from the other Christian Kingdoms in his struggle against the Moslem Turks that continually bite at his southern and eastern borders.

    The Knightly class in Europe has grown tiresome, and their incessant infighting is cause for the church to be concerned.

    Thus, his Holiness Pope Urban II has declared a most Holy Crusade to push back the Moslem hordes, make safe the borders of Byzantium, and open the road for good pilgrims to journey to the holy sites.

    Throughout the Kingdoms of Europe, zealots and noblemen alike turn their eyes East. Some for God, others for the chance of Glory and Riches and Lands.

    Even I, Peter of Naples, was infected by this fervor. I journeyed to Rome to see where the Crusade woulst depart, and was approached with a escort the monk Luther Konig and protect him in the Holy Land, with a small party of other pious Knights, while he did chronicle the Great Crusade....


    Ok, if any of you played Deus Vult, this will be similar in a number of ways.

    As you can see, the story will be told by Luther Konig and Peter of Naples. These characters are not of note, and have no political authority....they're also not answerable to any of you, so you can't order their party to do anything (IE they're not part of combat unless chance dictates it....just to get that out of the way).

    Money will be Florins. You'll need Florins to pay for mercenary salaries, food, weapons, etc. You can get florins (or other things) by asking for sponsorship from your liege Lord or your King, in which case a percentage of VP will be siphoned off to your liege at the end of the game. You can pawn your estates, which you'll have to pay back with interest (collectors could call at inopportune moments) or lose them (and the VP associated). You can sell your estates and lose the VP outright in expectation of more VP later. Or you can levy taxes and empty your purse and go with what you can afford, holding onto that VP associated with your home-side holdings.

    Weapons will be the militarily useful weapons of the early middle ages (the era in question). Swords are a knightly thing, so unless you plan on equipping the whole army at obscene expense, leave them to the knights. Weapons that you can worry about are spears, axes/maces/hammers, shields, javelins, bows, and crossbows. Armor can either be none (clothes or heavy clothing) or leather or maille, I'm not going to get into any more than 3 levels of armor as it'll make bookkeeping a nightmare. Unless otherwise noted, knights will be mounted, and have a spare or again bookkeeping issues alleviated. I'll allow limited looking into other stuff, but I'm going to steer clear of my typical nature of putting up purchase lists and creating my own healthcare marketplace type of nightmare. In this time period it was pretty much spearmen, knights, and crossbowmen. Archers and melee infantry with other weapons weren't hugely common among 'real' armies, and the Europeans didn't use a lot of light cavalry for anything.

    Victory Points: These will be figured in based on four general bits:

    1) Home points. If you have and maintain estates at home, you'll get a set number of VP here.

    2) Holy Land Points. If you manage to wrangle an estate or more in the Holy Land, you'll get VP based on the importance of that land either politically, religiously, or economically.

    3) Papal Points. Your piety level at the end of the game might net you some points in the form of accolades from the Pope, so don't discount piety points completely.

    4) Glory Points. Your performance in battle will net points on a sliding scale. The greater the odds against you, the greater number of points your victory will achieve. Winning a battle will always net points. However, things like a valiant rearguard or a hard-fought victory against all odds will net more than an overwhelming victory against a pathetically outmatched opponent.

    Piety Points: These determine if the Pope favors you. They also have a lot to do with the morale of those troops that join out of religious zeal (mercenaries are immune to piety). If your piety is very low, you may experience desertion.....maybe even to other banners within the Crusader Army (you're not allowed to encourage desertion from your friends....too difficult to calculate). OTOH if your piety is high you may experience high morale (holding against all odds), donations from pious rulers you come across, free recruitment of troops, etc. Piety points can be gained through sacrificial actions to the cause and/or being a good crusader. They can be lost through selfish or avaricious actions, or abandoning the crusade for your own pursuits.
    Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

  • #2
    Now, What I need from you:

    1) Your Name/Location. Can be a real, live historical figure, or a renaming of one, or a fictional name of someone you're claiming to be from the era. Must be a nobleman of higher rank than a Knight....otherwise you'll never get the support to put together a force. Also keep in mind that your mustering location will determine a lot about what sort of force you can build.

    2) Your method of raising florins. This is where it helps to be a historical figure or a renaming of one, as it gives me definitive lands to work with. You do not have to sell or pawn lands, but you can certainly do so, and you might find it is the best way to build up an early war chest. You can do it in combination....the only thing you can't do is sell land and tax it in combination. Your personal fortunes will automatically be put into your war chest.

    3) Your method of recruiting. You can raise levies, but of course you'll have to equip them. You can call for troops to join of their own free will, but of course their quality will vary unless you specify only certain types need apply (knights, certain quality of infantry, only crossbowmen, etc), and the more crusader armies leaving from the same region will affect the recruitment capability as men have choices. Or you can hire mercenaries. Remember that mercs will need to be paid, and troops will need to be fed on the keep in mind that a 10,000 florin war chest might not be nearly as large as you think it is.

    4) Your route to the Holy Land. There are three basic ways. March overland to Byzantium (Constantinople. Pretty much no limit on the troop numbers you have, and you might even get more on the way....OTOH it takes a long time (florins for upkeep) and you might have troubles on the march). March overland to Venice and sail to Constantinople or elsewhere (you could assault straight from the sea. Keep in mind that only a small force will be able to move this way, and at great expense though it saves time and lots of marching). Sail directly to Constantinople (or the Holy Land. But keep in mind that this will entail a VERY small force, and GREAT expense. You'll be wholly reliant on recruitment near Byzantium or your destination to fill your ranks with mercenaries or zealots to build a large force.)

    With those things taken care of, I'll do the magic and the math, and come back with what sort of war chest you have and your troops and their gear they come with. Then you can determine if you want to use an additional method to raise funds or troops, or if you want to spend some of your war-chest on more equipment.
    Last edited by TacCovert4; 11 Nov 13, 14:53.
    Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene


    • #3
      Name: redacted
      Locastion: redacted
      Title: redacted
      Source of income: redacted
      Source of troops: redacted
      Last edited by andrewza; 11 Nov 13, 15:21.
      you think you a real "bleep" solders you "bleep" plastic solders don't wory i will make you in to real "bleep" solders!! "bleep" plastic solders

      CPO Mzinyati


      • #4
        Oh, sorry. Forgot to mention. I won't be doing any of that stuff in the open yet. Everyone PM (YIKES) me with your info. Once I've got it worked out you'll get a full listing from my spreadsheet, and I'll put only 'common knowledge' in the thread. The War Chest of each player will be at least mostly secret, though the war chest of the whole Crusade might well be known.
        Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene


        • #5
          And now for some stuff that we find fun:

          Types of Crusader Troops in DVD

          Knights: This covers both true Knights and mounted Men At Arms. Heavy Cavalry wearing chain maille, helms, and shields, and carrying lances and swords. High Morale, Shock Value, Terrifying in Charge.

          Dismounted Knights: This covers only Knights that for whatever reason are without horse (such as they just sailed somewhere). Left to their own devices they'll find horse after a few turns if horse is available and they're still recieving their proper pay and ration. They're the top-tier of infantry while they're dismounted though, with excellent morale, a shock value, and the complete panoply of a Knight, with maille, helm, shield, sword, and shortened lance.

          Heavy Infantry: These are dismounted Men at Arms. Maille, Shield, Helm, and a melee weapon like an axe, hammer, or mace typifies these. If you want to go to the expense, you could do a bit with them, but often it's not worth it to equip them all with swords or with a two handed axe or mace (other pole-arms are really after this period and for my sanity won't be involved).

          Light Infantry: These are lightly armored (none or Leather) melee infantry. They come with shield and a melee weapon like an axe, hammer, or mace. They won't have the durability of their heavier cousins, but still bring a use to the table for a swirling melee or siege battle.

          Heavy Spears: Maille, Shield, and Spear. Not much more to say about these guys. These are essentially the professional backbone to virtually every fief's soldiery. They're the durable sort of defensive troops you build an army around.

          Light Spears: The bulk of any medieval army. Spear, Shield, and maybe some leather protection. They might not look like much but they're the cheapest guys to recruit, and a forest of spears does say something for itself when the Moslems come riding with their anticipated hordes of light cavalry.

          Crossbowmen: There is a heavy and light divide here, but it's not applicable to them in their normal role of skirmishing and providing fire against the enemy. The Crossbow is the standard weapon of a professional medieval army's ranged troops. Some crossbowmen are cross-trained (pun intended) as melee infantry, some even armored and armed with true melee weapons (Heavy Crossbowmen will be noted as wearing Chain and having an axe/hammer/mace).

          Other: There will of course be other troop types, but these troops made up virtually every Western European Army of note. Basic Archers, along with javelin troops and such were no longer in style for the General of Reputation....but we'll make the occasional exception. Light Cavalry was also pretty rare, as having a mount denoted social status and a lot of the noble classes weren't having light cavalrymen aside from squires and pageboys acting as runners (which will be abstracted).

          Note.........this does not include the Byzantine or Muslim forces.....there are a couple of other troop types there you'll come across.
          Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene


          • #6
            Wait, is the Luther Konig the same guy as in Konigerdamnerung?
            From Devastation - Knights Twilight Warhammer 40,000 Quest
            Rear Admiral Sander Van der Zee, Commander of Dutch Far East Theatre
            "There is never enough firepower!"


            • #7
              Different Luther Konig. He's some monk from somewhere.....just making notes to tell the tale of the Great Crusade.
              Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene


              • #8
                Кто там?
                Это я - Почтальон Печкин!
                Tunis is a Carthigenian city!


                • #9
                  To elaborate quickly.....before I get the anticipated question.

                  Pawning your estates gets you a pile of money up front, but you'll have to pay your creditors or you'll lose them.

                  Taxation (of various schemes, they're all abstract but good flavor) will net you a small income, so your war chest looks small. However, you'll be able to utilize taxation a number of times (variable, and the more often you use it the more likely...) without your home territories revolting (in which case your Liege puts down the revolt and you lose the territory).

                  Getting sponsorship from your neighbors, or from your direct liege lord will net you a variable amount of cash, and maybe some troops as well. You can only do it once, and you'll lose an unknown percentage of VP if it's your liege that sponsors you as you'll be acting under his banner.

                  Getting sponsorship from your King or Emperor will also net you a variable amount of cash and troops. You can only do it once. And you'll lose an unknown percentage of VP to the crown as part of the sponsorship (yes you can stack liege and crown sponsors....but the lost VP percentage also stacks).

                  You can also sell either part or all of your holdings outright. You lose the starting VP, but trade it for the likelihood of the largest initial income possible. And of course your sacrificial piety may not go unnoticed.
                  Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene


                  • #10
                    Oh and one more thing. It won't be exact, but you can imagine that upkeep could conceivably cost you 1 florin per man per turn if you paid for everything along the way. Of course you could ask for charity, donations, or forage (aka steal), or heck, plunder! Those are things you're going to have to ask yourself as you get on the march'll vary but it could be as many as 4 'turns' for some far flung reaches with long march routes to get to Constantinople.
                    Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene


                    • #11
                      Qustion. I know mainland europe was all about crossbows but aren't the english all big on longbows?
                      you think you a real "bleep" solders you "bleep" plastic solders don't wory i will make you in to real "bleep" solders!! "bleep" plastic solders

                      CPO Mzinyati


                      • #12
                        And so they gathered (right quickly I might add)

                        In the South of France, the famously wealthy Raymond IV, Count of Toulouse had quite literally picked his lands clean, both of men and money, as he built an army. The tents of his encampment seemed to cover every available clearing, a vast army of soldiers and levies heralded to be nigh twenty thousands strong.

                        In the center of France, Odo II, Duke of Burgundy was leaving all his worldly possessions behind, rumors of a great war-chest abounded as he managed the serried ranks of his own force. The sacrifice made was so great that it caused an outpouring of zeal throughout the land, and many flocked to his banner.

                        In the North, Baron Van der See of Holland took the blessing of his Count as he sold his own smaller estates. A great trade expedition was being assembled, and his hand-picked force of men sailed with it in expectation of glory in the Holy Land.

                        Just to the South, Robert II, Count of Flanders assembled his own force from the Flemish coasts, to march the long road in greater strength. What sources of income did he have, and what army was he assembling were still unknown to us.

                        And near the Heart of France, Count Stephen of Blois called up his own liegemen, and with the church levied a tax, and dist build a force, and a treasury of his own to march to the Levant.

                        (We still have some time, and no mercs have been hired yet)

                        Rumors abounding at Rome (which might be accurate, or might be completely false ):

                        Troops: ~40,000
                        War Chest: ~80,000
                        Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene


                        • #13
                          (We need a off topic thread for this game so I can aske qustions like. Who is doing the peoples crusade?)
                          you think you a real "bleep" solders you "bleep" plastic solders don't wory i will make you in to real "bleep" solders!! "bleep" plastic solders

                          CPO Mzinyati


                          • #14
                            Those morons are crashing through the area right They're not really accomplishing anything so far as Byzantium is concerned....except making a nuisance of themselves.
                            Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by andrewza View Post
                              Question. I know mainland Europe was all about crossbows but aren't the English all big on longbows?
                              In this period the "English" or Anglo Normans were not using the Long Bow. It was a tribal weapon in Wales. The Crossbow was probably more accurate, but a tad shorter ranged than the Long Bow. Harold did have a number of Archers when he fought at Stamford Bridge, but they were Short Bowmen. Since they were not mounted troops, he left them behind when he force marched to fight at Hastings.

                              Edward I "Longshanks" was the first English King to use a lot of Welsh Light troops in his Army. They were Light Spearmen and Archers.

                              If you hire English Archers, be prepared for Short Bows! The Compound Bows of the Arabs greatly out ranged the Crusaders Bows and Crossbows. I think a problem was the lightness of the Arab arrows. I don't think they invented Bodkin Point arrows for a while yet. The Arabs did employ a lot of Javelin men on Foot and Horseback. They may be available for hire. I imagine the best Bowmen were Byzantine.


                              I checked wiki and they say the bodkin point was used by the Vikings. It was mainly a choice in what kind of armor your enemy was wearing. Bodkins were better at penetrating chain mail than broadheads. Plate could be a problem for any arrow point, but Plate was rare and did not cover the whole body for many years yet.
                              Last edited by Pruitt; 11 Nov 13, 22:42.
                              Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                              Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                              by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"


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